Len,

>>Len,
>>
>>>Wrong on all accounts.
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>>*sigh*
>
>???
>
>>
>>>
>>>What I was trying to find out is how much you get out.
>>
>>??
>Hey, you accused me of not getting out, why the question here ?

Well, I was interested in where in the world you get your positions from. Whether or not you are a young, foolish person without any of life's experiences or where you get this sense that your idealism is actually going to work, and why> IOW, I want to understand your thought process.

>
>>
>>And this is proof of what may I ask? Other than showing a certain need to see others as inferior to yourself I suppose...
>
>No, the opposite, I want to know why you see yourself as superior.
>

I do not see myself as superior. I just do not suffer at this point in my life from a false sense of guilt. I know my shortcomings and my strengths. I will not apologize for my strengths and I will seek to offer to God, seeking His help in those areas I fail in.

I am of the opinion that the US not need apologize for being strong and using that strength in order to respond the barbarians of the Islamic Jihad.


>>
>>>You still haven't answered, how many Muslims have you talked to about their attitudes to the US ?
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>>I have talked with none but have read about many and watched many on the news. Is talking the only thing that counts as 'proof'?
>
>If it's talking to the people concerned, then YES that is the only proof. Get out, talk to these people, don't believe what is filtered to you via the TV stations press, publishing houses, they all have their own agenda, mainly making profits for the shareholders. A television program, news article, bok telling you that Muslims are ordinary people isn't going to make money, all you get is the opposite views.

Well, I reject out oh hand your silly notion that one must talk to others in order to gain knowledge. I do not need to talk with Thomas Jefferson or James Madison to understand what they wrote in the Federalist Papers - though it would be a nice thing to have a chance to do.

Just because I do not share your conclusions plese do not think that I haven't thought about the issues of life nor that I have somehow insulated myself from "opposing views". Quite the contrary. I've made something of a pest of myself around here and elsewhere as a direct result of precipitating these kinds of discussions. <g> Why do you think I'm bothering to take the time I am with you, for example? I am interested in learning from opposing view points. I think you have projected something from yourself upon me and I'm hoping you may at some point realize that I've already been down the road you are currently on.

>
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>>I will say that at this point in time my opinion is that the vast majority of those who adhere to Islam that live in the West are wonderful folks. As to those who live, say, in Indonesia where they've killed a bunch of folks (one they beheaded for example), or of those in the Sudan who engage in slave trading to this very day, of the Taliban who seem pretty barbaric, or the Iraquis who starve their own children while Hussein builds palaces (30+? at last count), or of the Saudia who publicly behead people or the Iranians who have to deal with the Imams, or of Kahdaffi who is just plain nuts, or of Arafat who has expressly advocated the utter elimination of Jews or of the wonderful Hezbollah saints or all the ones who killed people in the Olympics, or of a whole host of others.. No, I think that most are real nice folks.
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>>As Mark pointed out in another message, you are seeing the moderate believers. These are indeed wonderful folks and I'd be delighted to call anyone of them a friend. You just can't seem to bring yourself to see the reality of some of these others it appears.
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>>>Other than this one incident, how have you researched the fact that they will never give up ?
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>>Yes. Here's one link: http://www.khouse.org/strategictrends/islam/ Read through it a bit. I believe Mark McCasland has provided a few others if you're interested.
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>>I doubt it will convince you're preconclusions but, yes, I have read around a bit..
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>>>Do you know WHY some fanatical Muslims hate America ?
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>>Yes. These particular people have been taught to hate this way. Too bad they haven't been taught to forgive their enemies, eh? And remember... Forgiving one's enemy is a separate issue from allowing one's enemy to have their way with you without regard to defending one's self...
>
>So, not too unlike how Americans were taught to view Communists ?

Tell me Len.. How are Americans "taught to view Communists", since you claim to have this knowledge. At this point I'd be interested in your knowledge of our culture and where you have gained this knowledge if you would please. I think you're stuck in some kind of stereotype.


>
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>>>Have you spent a little time researching these issues, or is this simply anger over the appalling events of Tuesday ?
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>>Yes, I have.
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>>Now.. Your turn to answer a few questions if you would please...
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>>1) Are saying that hate in this case is ok or justifiable???
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>On whose side ?

Any side Len. Please answer the question rather than asking another.

>
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>>2) Are you suggesting that their hate for America justifies this attack Len?
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>In no way, if you've read all of my replies, including those to you.

Ok. Then since this attack is unjustified do you think that as a nation we have the right and obligation to respond? If so, how?

>
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>>3) Are you suggesting that because they hate America that precludes us from responding or that responding is somehow morally 'bad'? IOW, does their hate for us preclude us from reacting with equal force?
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>If it involves innocent people. then most definitely yes. Because their actions are wrong does not justify you doing similar, it takes you down to their level.

Well, the sad fact is that these people hide behind the innocents. I take it that you are unaware that the Palestinians send their childrend out first and that folks like Saddam Hussein hid behind their women during the conflict of Desert Storm? Some kind of faith that causes its radicals to hide behind women and children at the same time the blow their own kids up telling them they'll go straight to Paradise. And you want to justufy this?? What kind of barbarian are you?

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>
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>>4) Do you suffer from guilt because you live in the 1st world instead of the 3rd world?
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>I believe that there is much that we can do much for those less fortunate than ourselves, so in that respect, yes I do feel guilt. And to some extent, that could be one of the root causes here.

You know.. This is great! Please, go volunteer. Let me ask you another question... In all of man's recorded history what nation has done more for the impoverished, attacked and downtrodden? Are you just plain stupid or do you really not know that it is the United States of America? We are not perfect by a huge margin but from our vantage point about all we see over here are the critics who on one side castigate us for our material successes and on the other seek money from us. And who is the hypocrite here?

I seem to recall that the US shored up the British economy after WWII after the Germans bombed you folks close to oblivion. You folks owe is IMO but we forgive your debt and then you carp and gripe and groan because we want to respond to this event forcefully? I have to think you are an embarrassment to your fellow Brits at this point Len. Shame on you. I do not apologize for being the sole superpower. Those who attacked us I suppose are now hiding ion the holes of their mountains.

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>>5) What do you 'feel' about the Palestinians dancing in the street? What do you 'feel' about their threats on the safety of the news folks should they run film of this event?
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>How many Americans danced in the street (or even just sat at home chugging beer & being happy) to the film shots of the cruise missiles hitting targets in Iraq ? In my opinion it was wrong, but I can understand why it was done.

So, you're morally equating the US and Iraq? No wonder you're confused. <g> I don't think that we should gloat but I do think we should respond in such a fashion that they will forever fear for their safety.

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>>6) What, in your mind, would be the proper response for the US at this point?
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>Look to the way that world peace can be achieved. Look for the reasons why the atrocity happened, & find ways that these things can be avoided throughout the world, not just in America.

You haven't answered the question. You've just spouted more worthless platidudes about 'peace'. How do you make this happen? What specific ways Len?

I am at this point going to assert that you have nothing to offer than empty and meaningless platitudes - none of which you can point me to to demonstrate that has brought the results you correctly desire. You have confused your idealism as though it were reality. It simply is not and until, in your life you get to where you realize this you will simply be a bystander to life.

Please stay out of the way of those who know what to do, would you?

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>>I'm not sure I'm reading your messages correctly Len but it appears that you are somehow insinuating that it was ok for them to attack us or that it is somehow 'bad' for us to respond. This was an act of war and we have every right to respond as we see fit.
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>Only if that way is within international laws. In your country it is unacceptable to act outside the law, even if it seems unreasonable, international laws should be treated the same. You cannot take the view that the people you are opposed to ae acting outside international laws, if you yourself are prepared to do the same.

As a soverign nation we reserve the right to defend ourselves and international law can wait. We have not nor should we surrecnder our national soverignity to international law.

As though the terrorists care about international law... just how naive' are you? Are you really so dumb as to think that terrorists will check international law before they do something?


>
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>>Last but not least.. Do you condone or support this behavior of slamming airplanes into buildings in any fashion whatsoever? I'd be very interested in an honest answer here...
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>In no way do I condone or support this action, but I believe that taking revenge on innocent people will not stop this happening again. The people who harbour these terrorists may be living between a rock & a hard place, if they give them up to you they are killed, if you find them harbouring them, they will be killed.

We're going to kill the perpetrators Len. The people who harbor these terrorists are equally culpable and responsible. If they want to turn the 'bad guys' over to us we'd appreciate it. And encourage it.

You know.. You seem to keep coming back to this notion that we somehow want to kill innocents Len. I am deeply offended personally that you would thisnk that. Are you so unaware of the fact that we are currently quite aware of what it is like to have innocent victimes of violence? The last thing we would want to do is inflict that kind of pain deliberately on anyone else, Muslim, or otherwise. It is apparent that you have a low opinions of us Len and perhaps some day you might awaken to the fact that we understand what you are attempting to say far better than you realize. Perhaps at that point you will have developed enough character to apologize for your current foolish thinking. We know what pain is. We have no desire whatsoever to inflict any of that unnecessarily on anyone else. As a matter of fact many here would just as soon be left alone. However, we also understand that rabid dogs must be put down.

Perhaps what you don't like is that we're going to exercise the power and responsibility we have. Well, sorry, but it's going to happen whether you like it or not. These terrorists are dead men.



>
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>From your responses, I believe you to be a moral, religious person. I will pose a small dilemma for you. How far are you personally prepared to go to minimise the number of innocent people (collateral damage, in your parlance) - you. personally, are told where Bin Laden is hiding, you can drop a bomb on the vilage, killing everyone including him, or to minimse casualties, you the village can be rounded up & you personally can put a gun to the head of each individual, until someone gives him up - starting from the youngest. How many children would you be prepared to kill yourself, or would you go for the easy option of the bomb, killing all of them ?

Well, perhaps you should ask that question of the wife of the young man on Flight 93 in Pittsburgh. They determined that they were going to die and they then determined that they were going to choose to die on their own terms.

As far as bin Laden goes I'd prefer that only he get the bullet in the ear but since he's a coward hiding behind children I suppose a few kids will probably die as well. Perhaps the next terrorist will think longer if he knows his wife and children will also be placed in harms' way. Of course, I hope you understabd that people like this do not care for their own kids.

Perhaps you should ask bin Laden why he placed his children in harm's way? He's the guilty one here. Toss a grenade and then hide behind his kids? And you question the US? <g> How amazingly dumb.

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>You talk about killing all who harbour him, is there a cut off age ? Are children responsible for the actions of their parents.

No, and that's the sad part. Remember, the US didn't put those children in harm's way. bin laden did. Go ask him.

>
>In another post, you asked about my guilt for the slave trade ? Nothing to do with me, you want to go far enough back in history, it is thought we are all evolved from Africans, do we assume that they are responsible for their own slavery ?

The children are not responsible for the sins of the father though they often suffer as a result. History is past. Learn from it.

One simple question: What countries in the world this very day are engaging in slavery Len? Do you even know? If you do, please delineate them. Start with the Sudan....

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>Yes, I am angry at what has happened, but I am more afraid of the consequences for my childrens lives because of some of the views I have heard since, from a supposedly predominantly Christian nation. To hear that Billy Graham's son is all for use of nuclear weapons worries me.

Fear. Why does this not surprise me? I take no pleasure in any killings whatsoever Len. Perhaps you haven't figured this out. But, there's a huge difference between that and being willing to take responsibility for responsing. I suppose you have bars on the windows of your house as well? Letting the bullies run the neighborhood are you? We're all subject to fear but what you seem to be doing is confusing cowardice with fear. Or at least elevating it to something noble.

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>How far are your personally prepared to go ? This is a completely different question to how far would you like your army to go, just you, as a Christian. - Your honest answer, please.

First - You are clever. You don't answer questions. You avoid them by posing more.

Well, there is IMO a huge difference between individual responses and corporate (ie. governmental) responses).


>
>You talk about me get an experience of life, we in Britain have lived with terrorist action for over 30 years, you in America take action against other countries in the belief that you are isolated and protected, it is not me that is being introduced int real life, it is you. And yes, I have been close to such action & I personally know the feelings it induces. Living so close to a group of terrorists, funded predominantly by Americans, maybe we have a different view on what has happened.

30 years worth eh? Seems like you still haven't figured out how to deal with it or that your methods are ineffective perhaps because you're not willing to get 'tough'?

Why haven't you guys taken care of your problem? Throw people out of your country why don't you? Or, after 30 years are you still trying the Neville Chamberlain approach of appeasement? Seems you folks have a tough time learning. Execute the terrorists why don't you? Oh, that's right.. You're civilized... *chuckle* Seems you are playing the fool more likely.

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>Your president talks big and loud against international terrorism, but turns a blind eye to what your own country does.

You're just jealous that we have someone with a backbone. <g> And BTW we won't be just talikng this time Len. If you are in anyway connected to these terrorists and have harbored or sheltered them we're going to knock on your door too you know. There will be no place to hide.

Do I wish this hadn't happened? Yes, of course.

Would I like to have a peaceful world? Of course!

Would I prefer that all men live together in peace? Yes, absolutely!!!

Do I forgive the terrorists? Yes, before God I do but they are still responsible before God and in this case the citizens of the United States of America for their deeds. For those deeds we will hold them accountable all the while that we pray for their souls.

I am not sure you understand. I hope you do. Your tremendously wonderful idealism is just that - wonderful; but it does not remove culpability for past actions. I share your idealism. I do not share the irrational application of it to life.