Tamar,

>DN >>Why does my daughter have to learn Christmas songs in the school then?
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>DD >Why would my child be forced to abandon the songs she/he would like to sing?
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>No one would force your child to abandon those songs. The issue is whether the teacher in a public school (who is a representative of the state) can make singing them part of class. Outside of class, kids can sing whatever they want (within the bounds of school rules about making noise in various places, etc., that apply to all singing). However, the teachers and principal and other adults in a school are authority figures - when they say "We're now going to sing 'Silent Night'," the child whose religion prohibits him from singing it and who simply is uncomfortable singing it is put into an unreasonable position. "Teacher says to do this; Mom and Dad say not to. What do I do?"

So, then instead of your child asking that question you now force my child to ask the same question?

Tell me how that is "fair"? ALl you are doing is making others do what you are asserting is "unfair". I fail to see the equity there. That's been my whole point but you seem to think you have special priviledges here and you get your way at my expense. (figuratively speaking)

I find it extremely unreasonably and unfair that you (again, figuratively speaking) are forcing me to abandon my faith solely on the basis that you don't like my position. I also find it to be hypocritical in the extreme, particularly since this is now the tyranny of the minority. Sure, from a Constitutional point of view we have all been taught that a Democratic Republic (not a democracy, remember <g>) that it was instituted to avoid the tyranny of the majority.

So, by replacing it with the tyranny of the minority we have eliminated tyranny? I hardly think so!

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>>Your rights to not sing those songs do not trump my rights to sing them. Remember, free speech doesn't require you to listen nor does it contain the right to not be offended. That is nowhere to be found in the Constitution.
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>Correct, and in your home and out in the world in general, you're absolutely right. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about what happens in a publically funded school, where there is an authority relationship.

No, free speech is not limited to the confines of my home. It is specifically included in the public square. Come on Tamar.. You know better...

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>>Send your child outside during the singing.
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>Why should my child or Dragan's be forced to make himself or herself different. Our Constitution guarantees that the state will not establish a religion. I believe that having the school sponsor prayer (and I view singing of religious Christmas carols as prayer) is an establishment of religion.

And again, why should your child's view force his view on my child? This sword cuts both ways. If it is 'wrong' for me to 'force' my pov on your child it is equally 'wrong' for you to be able to do that to my child as well.

I believe you are entirely wrong in your interpretation that allowing various types of songs in a school is the establishment of a religion. It is the acknowledgement of one perhaps but until the state starts collecting tithes I think you're still confusing freedom of religion as freedom from religion. Your faith (whether secular humanism or ?) has no right to prohibit me from expressing mine - even in the public square. If you are allowed to do that the next step is to assert that since the "public square" has been funded by the state that the expression of my faith there is somehow the government establishing a religion. It always surprises me how some want to proclaim and support freedom of speech until it comes to Jesus. Funny how no one seems to be griping about taking school rooms in elementary schools and allowing followers of Islam to use them for their daily prayers. On the school ground, during school hours.

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><< My wife (a 2nd grade teacher) has had children whose parents did not want them to say the Pledge of Allegiance. Rather than make all the other children not say it they allowed the child to go out into the hall, sit quietly at their desk or some other activity. >>
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>Our Constitution doesn't guarantee that the state won't establish a state. <g> But I'd be a lot happier if they'd remove "under God" from the Pledge and restore it to its pre-1954 condition.

Well, at the rate this country is turning its back on God I suppose you may have a point. Too bad for us but another example on anti-God thought. What is so onerous in the sying, "In God We Trust"? Goodness gracious what a horrible thing to do? Trust in God..

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>>Simply put, neither you, your daughter, me or anyone else has a Constitutional right to force others to not offend us by what they say.
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>But prayer in school has nothing to do with being offended; it has to do with whether the government (in this case, represented by school authorities) may establish a state religion.

Look, there is a difference between accepting that others have a different point of view and thinking that because others have a different point of view that it is automatic that they are going to force their point of view on you.
Are you suggesting that anyone who thinks differently than you is so dangerous that you are forced to stop them from these thought processes? They do that in Communist countries if I recall and even with all the power of the state it doesn't work.

Again, there is a difference between freedom of religion and from religion. You are confusing the two with this position.


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>>>>I'd actually like to see the various religious belief systems taught. Of course, an honest treatment of any of them would lead to howls of anger I suppose as none have clean hands and most are fraught with internal inconsistencies. That would be a real food fight. <g>
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>I would have no objections to a comparative religion course, taught at an appropriate grade level. I would expect the teacher to invite clerics of the various religions to comment on the curriculum and, ideally, to speak to the students. (FWIW, Nathaniel is having such a course in Hebrew High School this year.)

Nor would I but I'd be willing to bet that you would be very hard pressed to get a curriculum that was totally evenhanded.