Hi Tamar,

Been swamped. Sorry for the delayed response...

>TG >>No one would force your child to abandon those songs. The issue is whether the teacher in a public school (who is a representative of the state) can make singing them part of class. Outside of class, kids can sing whatever they want (within the bounds of school rules about making noise in various places, etc., that apply to all singing). However, the teachers and principal and other adults in a school are authority figures - when they say "We're now going to sing 'Silent Night'," the child whose religion prohibits him from singing it and who simply is uncomfortable singing it is put into an unreasonable position. "Teacher says to do this; Mom and Dad say not to. What do I do?"
>>
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>DD>So, then instead of your child asking that question you now force my child to ask the same question?
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>But why would your child need to ask the question? If no religious songs are sung in school, what's happening to put your child between the rock and the hard place? Nothing is stopping him or you from singing those songs anywhere else, or even in the schoolyard on his own. All that we're talking about is that they're not included in any formal way in the school program.

Gosh.. Maybe my child would like to sing some of those songs?? Maybe my child is sore offended at the materialistic and secular nature of what was originally "Christ's Mass" ?? I don't suppose that this has anything to do with it.. <g>

Sheesh..

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>>I find it extremely unreasonably and unfair that you (again, figuratively speaking) are forcing me to abandon my faith solely on the basis that you don't like my position.
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>How does keeping religious activity out of school keep you from practicing your religion?

???

How does black equal white? How does forcing someone into non-activity keep them from being active?

Gosh.. I guess I don't really know.

Double sheesh.. <g>


>Does your religion require you to have public prayer at certain times of the day that fall during the school day? (Judaism doesn't, though prayer at certain times of day is required of adults. To the best of my knowledge, Christianity doesn't, either. Islam, of course, does, and that's why accomodations have been made for Moslem students.)

No, not at all but what if I WANT to pray? Why does your inability (figuratively speaking again) "force" you to be unable to accept me for what I am? Why are you actively preventing me from freely expressing myself?

Oh, that's right.. You are offended and your being offended 'trumps' my rights. I forgot...

Triple sheesh.. < bg >


>
>>>>Your rights to not sing those songs do not trump my rights to sing them. Remember, free speech doesn't require you to listen nor does it contain the right to not be offended. That is nowhere to be found in the Constitution.
>>>
>>>Correct, and in your home and out in the world in general, you're absolutely right. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about what happens in a publically funded school, where there is an authority relationship.
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>>No, free speech is not limited to the confines of my home. It is specifically included in the public square. Come on Tamar.. You know better...
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>Right, but it doesn't give you a right to have those in authority make singing the songs part of a school curriculum. (For that matter, it probably doesn't give you the right to sing them in a crowded theater. The management can throw you out.) Nothing I'm saying prevents you from singing those songs.

And it doesn't give those who do not wish to hear baout God the right to take my rights away from me, which is what is ahppening. Perhaps the answer here is vouchers and a removal of the federal government from the schools (starting another 1000 message thread.. <g>). Seriosly, let's get back to educating the poor kids so they can at least read.


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>>>>Send your child outside during the singing.
>>>
>>>Why should my child or Dragan's be forced to make himself or herself different. Our Constitution guarantees that the state will not establish a religion. I believe that having the school sponsor prayer (and I view singing of religious Christmas carols as prayer) is an establishment of religion.
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>>And again, why should your child's view force his view on my child? This sword cuts both ways. If it is 'wrong' for me to 'force' my pov on your child it is equally 'wrong' for you to be able to do that to my child as well.
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>But my child's view isn't being forced on your child's, in this scenario. If it my child's POV, then the school day would start with the recitation of the Sh'ma and, at certain times of year, blowing the Shofar. But I don't think that belongs in public school any more than Silent Night.

Yes it is! When you stop me from being able to sing. That is exactly what you are doing.

Your opinion of what you think should or should not be in school has no more or less bearing than mine does. In my opinion I think we should have more religious teaching and a reinstatement of the 10 Commandments as well. That is my opinion and it has as much value as yours does, right? Or is yours 'better'? I don't think you believe that but that's essentially what you just said it appears.

Content-neutral color is what color Tamar? <g>

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>>I believe you are entirely wrong in your interpretation that allowing various types of songs in a school is the establishment of a religion.
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>As I said before, I think these songs are equivalent to prayer, and the school running prayer is establishment of religion.

I am comfortable that you think this way. They actually may have started life as prayers in fact. So? Why is the 'establishment' supressing my freedom to sing these songs and robbing my community of theits cultural heritage?


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>>Funny how no one seems to be griping about taking school rooms in elementary schools and allowing followers of Islam to use them for their daily prayers. On the school ground, during school hours.
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>But without any participation by staff (except perhaps an adult to ensure that all present are safe). Other religious groups are entitled to (and many get) the same accomodation. I know there are Christian student prayer groups that meet in our local schools.

And if some of those students want to sing 'Silent Night" in a Chri ..ehrrr.. Xmas play? <g>

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>>Look, there is a difference between accepting that others have a different point of view and thinking that because others have a different point of view that it is automatic that they are going to force their point of view on you.
>>Are you suggesting that anyone who thinks differently than you is so dangerous that you are forced to stop them from these thought processes?
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>Of course not. The issue in schools is authority figures. When the teacher says "We're doing thus and so," it is an official statement.

Right. And when a teacher says, "We are not doing thus and so" it is equally an official statement. What about this do you not understand? That's my whole point. All you're doing is substituting one religious (humanism) philosophy in place of another.


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>And, you well know that I have no problems with anyone thinking what they want. There's been no discussion at all in this thread about limit people's thoughts.

Think anything you like but only do as the state permits...

Sounds too good to be true...

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>>>I would have no objections to a comparative religion course, taught at an appropriate grade level. I would expect the teacher to invite clerics of the various religions to comment on the curriculum and, ideally, to speak to the students. (FWIW, Nathaniel is having such a course in Hebrew High School this year.)
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>>Nor would I but I'd be willing to bet that you would be very hard pressed to get a curriculum that was totally evenhanded.
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>That's why I said I'd like clergymen involved in the process.

<g>

I don't think you fully realize what kind of a fight you're asking for here... < BG >