><> >>Gosh.. Maybe my child would like to sing some of those songs?? Maybe my child is sore offended at the materialistic and secular nature of what was originally "Christ's Mass" ?? I don't suppose that this has anything to do with it.. <g> > >Your child (anyone's child) can sing these songs all they want. What I'm saying is that they don't belong in the classroom led by the teacher (though Dragan's approach of "We're going to learn songs from a variety of cultures" works for me, as long as it's made clear that all children may learn by listening rather than participating if they prefer).
Well, then we sing 'secular' or pagan songs, both of which have religious origins then? What you are failing to see is that all of this is about the banning of songs that represent a pov that a small minority disagrees with - on that basis. As you know, nature abhors a vacuum and so we replace those songs with songs that have origins in other religious systems. IOW, we promote secularism or paganism (both religions) in the name of diversity or allegedly 'content neutral'?
This is not about just making sure that multiple points of view are represented. This is an attempt to scrub God out of the public square in the name of 'tolerance'.
I'm just wondering when someone is going to step up to the plate and apologize to God for our intolerance of Him?
Pity..
> >As for being offended by the secular nature of Christmas, that's a matter for the church and the home. If we don't celebrate Christmas in school at all, we don't have to worry about whether it's being done only in a secular. After all, we don't celebrate Passover in school or Ramadan, and we shouldn't. > >>>How does keeping religious activity out of school keep you from practicing your religion?
Well, look.. You don't get it so I'll forego writing the same thing again.
>> >>??? >> >>How does black equal white? How does forcing someone into non-activity keep them from being active? >> > >Why are you (or anyone) forced into non-activity. School is not a 24x7 occupation. Celebrate your holidays outside of school. Behave in a manner in accordance with your faith all the time.
School is a part of "all the time" Tamar. Like about one third.
> > > >>No, not at all but what if I WANT to pray? Why does your inability (figuratively speaking again) "force" you to be unable to accept me for what I am? Why are you actively preventing me from freely expressing myself? > >Nothing stops you from praying -- privately. What I'm opposed to (and, more importantly, what I believe our Constitution prohibits) is the teacher or other authority figure leading students in prayer because that is an establishment of religion by the government.
So.. I have to pray 'privately' while the secularists and humanists 'pray' publicly and force my kids to go along with them or they get graded down? Before you respond that this doesn't happen do your homework. It does happen.
What you do not understand is that we have replaced faith in God with faith in man. ie. Secular Humanism. A very poor substitute considering man's history...
> >>>But my child's view isn't being forced on your child's, in this scenario. If it my child's POV, then the school day would start with the recitation of the Sh'ma and, at certain times of year, blowing the Shofar. But I don't think that belongs in public school any more than Silent Night. >> >>Yes it is! When you stop me from being able to sing. That is exactly what you are doing. >> >>Your opinion of what you think should or should not be in school has no more or less bearing than mine does. In my opinion I think we should have more religious teaching and a reinstatement of the 10 Commandments as well. That is my opinion and it has as much value as yours does, right? Or is yours 'better'? I don't think you believe that but that's essentially what you just said it appears. >> >>Content-neutral color is what color Tamar? <g> > >Doug, I don't know whether you're playing Devil's Advocate or you really don't see the difference here. I'll say it one more time - there is a difference between what a child does privately and a teacher (or other authority figure) telling children "We're now going to pray." The latter is an establishment of religion.
And you are not seeing my point. There is no such thing as neutrality here as all 'positions' are an expression of some form of faith or religious system. There is no such thing whatsoever as a 'neutral' position!
> >>>As I said before, I think these songs are equivalent to prayer, and the school running prayer is establishment of religion. >> >>I am comfortable that you think this way. They actually may have started life as prayers in fact. So? Why is the 'establishment' supressing my freedom to sing these songs and robbing my community of theits cultural heritage? > >As I've said repeatedly, your freedom to sing these songs isn't being suppressed, only your freedom to insist that everyone sing these songs. > > >>And if some of those students want to sing 'Silent Night" in a Chri ..ehrrr.. Xmas play? <g> > >I know you won't be surprised to hear that I don't think public schools should present Christmas plays. I suppose a play in which, say, children of different faiths teach each other about their religions would be okay, as would a real play that happens to take place at Christmastime (say, Dicken's Christmas Carol or Annie), but a "Christmas Pageant" belongs in church, not in public school.
I understand that you think this way. I guess singing about God's love is really a pretty damaging event. <g>
> >>>Of course not. The issue in schools is authority figures. When the teacher says "We're doing thus and so," it is an official statement. >> >>Right. And when a teacher says, "We are not doing thus and so" it is equally an official statement. What about this do you not understand? That's my whole point. All you're doing is substituting one religious (humanism) philosophy in place of another. > >But why would the teacher ever say "We are not doing thus and so"? Why would it come up? Were your teachers in the habit of saying "We're not studying geometry today" when it wasn't part of the curriculum?
Children do ask questions, so yes, a teacher certainly could say that they were not studying geometry that day. This isn't an intellectual vacuum you know..
> >>Think anything you like but only do as the state permits... >> > >Absolutely. That's how our system works. I can think that I detest someone and wish they'd die; I can even say it, if I want, but I can't act on that thought. > >Tamar
Ahh. but I can vote. <g>
Best,
DD
A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose. Everything I don't understand must be easy! The difficulty of any task is measured by the capacity of the agent performing the work.
