Hi Alex,

>>>>People make choices Alex. Don't blame God for the choices people make.
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>>>That's BS. Did the little girl made a choice that day too?
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>>Of course she didn't. The individual that made the choice to harm this little girl is the responsible party.
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>>Are you blaming God for the choice the child didn't make or the one the man did make, or God for not making the one you think should have been made??
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>I'm not blaming God. Just the guy. What I'm saying is that if your God was a benevolent one he could've saved the girl.

Well, me too, as far as who's responsible here.

The problem with the second half of your remarks, as I see it, is this; If you can claim enough wisdom and knowledge to be able to criticize God for not doing something you think He should of done, aren't you ipso facto also claiming more wisdom and knowledge than God? That's where I think you're off the mark. We both agree that the perp is the responsible party but God isn't responsible just because he doesn't do things the way you or I think He should.

Candidly I would have rather He stopped the act but it didn't happen. When our son Jonathan was hit by the automobile that jumped the curb and killed I can guarantee you that I would have rather that it had never happened. Was it God's fault for not stopping the young man who was so inattentive? No, it was the young man's fault. Could God have stopped it. Absolutely. Did He? Nope. Why? I honestly do not know all the reasons - but I can attest to you today that more good has come from that tragedy than I could spend a lifetime telling you about. Was the event good? No, no way Alex. I miss my son horribly at times but the reality is is that he's physically dead. I don't get a choice on whether I want to deal with this whatsoever.

But to assert that God is somehow 'mean', 'evil' or 'cruel' just because He doesn't do what I want makes me think of a two year old throwing a royal tantrum because he can't have what he wants right now. I don't know if you have children or not but sometimes you express your love for them by what you withhold rather than what you give. SOmetimes you let them fail so they can learn some of life's more important lessons. Getting one's way all the time is IMO not a sign of great maturity. <g>

I think man does this in his relationship with God and IMO it's equally immature.

I honestly do not know why God allows bad things to happen, particularly to the innocents but what I do know is that He loves me and has promised to wipe away all the tears.

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>So, what you're really saying if you chose the third option is, "If I were God I'd have done this in a different way."
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>Not at all. All I said is that there are many choices to explain the situation. Just asked you to pick one.

Well, I think you are but that's a moot point I suppose. Let me ask this then; Would you be willing to accept the answer from God, "I'm not going to tell you now."? Perhaps He wants to foster trust in us and I can guarantee you that nothing is harder to do than to trust God in situations like this until you learn the lessoin of trust and you then see that God had to bring you past the point where you trust yourself and to the point where you have no other options than to trust Him. SOmetimes these horrible situations bring us to the end of ourselves - our ability to understand, reason and rationalize. We simply have only one option (trust) left to us. We are a stubborn lot I suppose... <s> In the case of this little girl her mother got divorced, found her faith and remarried a Christian man whereas her former husband was a real louse. So, yes, some good has come from this event though I dare say I'm sure I know less than 1% of it.

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>Well, glad to know you don't have a self image problem. <g> But, neither you nor I are God so that's kind of a foolish alternative. Therefore, it's choice #1 or #2 and I choose #2. I blame the man who made the decision, not the child nor God.
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>It is not just #1 or #2. You choose #2. That's fine. There are many other possibilities as I have shown.

I understand but the 'error' i think you're making is to presume God is obligated to take one of your options.

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>>Let me ask you a question: who makes up your mind for you in any given situation?
>>I'll bet that your response is that you do. If so, then who is at fault if you make what turns out to be a bad decision Alex? Do you blame your parents, society, someone else or do you take responsibility for making a bad decision?
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>Of course I do, and I'm responsible for it. i.e. I do not blame a supernatural being nor anything, nor I use one to explain everything either. And if I did, why would I be so presumptuous as to presupose that my God is the only one or better than everybody else's? Maybe the killer's god is some other god that told him to do it.

Whoa.. Wait a minute! You are indeed blaming God in your remarks and the last time I looked He was supernatural. <bg>

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>>Ok.. So how in the world do you want to blame God (whom you claim doesn't exist BTW!) for the results of a (very) bad decision some fellow made?
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>I am not blaming anybody else but the guy. Just reread my message. Nor am I claiming that he/she doesn't exist. Merely that there's no proof one way or the other. The evidence collected so far points to the nay side but we don't know. So there is no compelling reason for me to suppose there is one, and that he/she is better than everybody else's god.

Then why are you getting on God'a case for not stopping the event? Your basic reaction to me has been, "How can I believe in your god when he allows stuff like this to happen?", correct? I've explained that it's a matter of trust at some point and that's a scary thing for folks.

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>>Answer: There isn't any logic in it. You're being emotional and IMO irrational because you're upset that God doesn't follow your plan for life? The man who made the bad decision is responsible for that bad decision, just as you or I would be.
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>What are you talking about? That sentence does not make much sense. It is perfectly rational to study the situation from many sides. I attempted to do so and I offered several possible explanations toyour question. You picked one, I picked another. That's all.

Well, I could have swrorn you were angry that God didn't stop this event from happening and since He didn't He wasn't worth your trouble. I'm just trying to get it across to you that there are many many things we trust in even though we don't know all the details and facts.

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>>Now.. Add conscious thought to that decision and, of course, it's elevated to a much higher level.
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>Why? Didn't we just add conscious thought to analyzing the issue? Maybe the killer acted irrationally or maybe he also used conscious thought andfor whatever reason did what he did.

No no.. Conscious thought from the killer's pov. IOW, it could have been an accident but because it was a deliberate act it raises the level of depravity IMO.

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>>Our decisions (choices) impact those around us, no matter how hard we try and deceive ourselves that this is not the case. That's not suggesting either good or bad, just that they impact those around us.
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>Nothing new there.

No, but it's good to remind ourselves.

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>>That poor little girl had another's decision forced upon her. She was violated first and foremost in this area. God will never force anyone to make a decision they do not want to. That's called respect, just as it would be if that nasty person had shown respect for the wishes of the little girl (and her parents). He didn't, which is hugely sad.
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>And how do you know that God will never do something like that? Get's us back to the beginning where he must have had a pretty good reason to let the girl die. Or maybe it was one of the other aforementioned choices.

I agree that I don't really know why God allowed this to happen. So far, from what I've seen some good has come from it. I really think Alex that the trouble people get themselves into is when they forget that there is nothing whatsoever that God can learn. Omniscience is something we cannot (by definition I suppose) understand. That we do not understand everything is not a justifiable reason to rail against God.

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>>But don't think that because God is longsuffering that He is unjust, unable or unwilling to settle this matter.
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>And why not? Most of the killing and suffering in this world, sadly was/is done in the name of one god or another.

I understand that much of the killing has been done in the name of some god or another. The god of athiesm has killed more than all others if I have my numbers coreect. Stalin, Pol Pot and all the others far outdid Herr Hitler.

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>>There really are folks who are innocents and who have very bad things done to them by other human beings who deliberately do those bad things to them. But, it's the human beings that are choosing to do these things. IMO they are grossly misusing their ability to choose but there it is. The classic example is that jesus was sinless but he was killed. Not because He did something to deserve it but because man is evil. Don't blame mankind's evil on God; that was man's choice. Personally God didn't need to pay the penalty for all of man's bad choices but He did - on that cross - so you and I wouldn't have to receive the justice of God but could receive the mercy and grace of God.
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>More Bible thumping, eh? He died for my sins, right? Please explain that to the billions of non-christians that would tell you otherwise.

*chuckle* Yeah.. I just can't stop thumping my Bible. <g> As far as explaining that to the billions I'd be very happy to so do if God gave me the venue. I would love to tell them of His love, grace and absolute and total, freely dispense forgiveness. I would love to be able to tell them that all they need to do is stop fighting God, surrender their lives to Him and receive His infinite love into their lives. Such love... Flooding the sould from theinside out; turning into a torrent that literally gushes from within. You bet I'd love to do that. God doesn't want anyone to perish.


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>>Like I said, don't blame God for the choices of mankind. You and I will live and die (here and for eternity) as a direct result of the choices we make. Everyone in heaven will have wanted to go there and everyone who ends up in hell will have chosen that path of their own free will - in spite of a free pardon.
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>That is assuming there is a heaven and hell as you envision it. Again, most of humanity - past and present - are not christians and may not agree with your vision, but offer a different one.

Well, sure. Some day all will find out I suppose. <s> I cannot force anyone to believe as I do and I wouldn't try. Persuade? You bet. Force? No way!

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>>Could God have stopped the man? You bet. Why didn't He? I don't have any idea. That doesn't mean God is evil as you suggest.
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>Evil was just one of the possible options offered. The other ones were oblivious, uncaring, impotent, nonexistent. So you took your pick. Good. Just be aware that there are other alternative explanations as I offered.

Right. These are all various illustrations of many of the several philsophical approaches to the study of God and man. If you are at all interested in a concise dealing with these (from a Christian POV mind you) then I'd recommend the late Dr. Francis Schaeffer's book, "The God Who Is There" where he deals specifically with each of these thoughts and gives some very good things to think about. He was a rigorous thinker and I think you'd appreciate his writings, brainy guy that you are. <g>

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>>That just means that we are not all-knowing and that we do not have all the facts. and that we are limited and not God. Neither you nor I have that kind of capacity and to presume to have enough to blame God is, well, IMO extremly foolhardy and candidly silly on the face of it. Surely you're not suggesting that you know everything? I sure don't and I don't think you do either. If you don't how can you presume to know enough here to get so mad at God?? You know something He doesnt?
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>No argument there. But - again - that does not prove the existence of a supernatural being, benevolent or otherwise in any way. It is just one possible explanation.

No, of course not. The whole idea that I'm attempting to get across here is that it is reasonable to believe in God. This is very important in and of itself as many people believe the lie that faith and reason can not coexist, a patently false assertion. Once you've gotten to that point you can then start to deal with the several individual issues. It's a worthy intellectual exercise. <s>

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>>The physical world is such a small part of existence. What is it, 70-80 years? Compared to eternity is's a small flash of light compared to the heart of the sun.
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>70-80 years is not such a small part of existence, considering the sun is only 6000 years old? Isn't it? Actually, a little less than the Earth and a day or two older than mankind. Right? I mean, if we start Bible thumping then everything it says is true. Not that mumbo-jumbo these so-called 'scientists' say when they insist they can prove the earth is over 4.5 billion years old? And the universe is over 15 billion? Can you believe such nonsense?

You're taking bits and pieces from here and there and using it to bolster your sense of dismay at what you see as non-thinking approaches to the relationship between the natural sciences and faith-based approaches. And you're not hiding it very well. <bg> I would only suggest that as much as you think that folks like myself are ignorant of the physical sciences you are equally ignorant of what the Bible actually is saying and not saying. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black? <g> I,too, share your dismay at my colleagues who assert (at times) what may be speculation or utter nonsense. However, it really isn't proper to blame all for the errors of some, is it?

Go to www.marshill.org or www.ldolphin.org (Lambert is a physicist) for just two examples of some very highly educated fellows who also are able to believe with no conflicts. Dr. Schaeffer is another example, though in the 'soft' science of philosophy.


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>>People get really mad all the time and blame God for something that's the result oftentimes of their own decisions! Talk about irrational..
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>Yeah. That is irrational. Imagine. Some people even believe in other pagan gods like Ra or even Yoda and The Force! And they cannot prove it! But they are wrong. It says so in the book!

*chuckle*

Like you have displayed a thorough knowledge of the Bible. <g>

Hey Alex. I enjoy these discussions. I hope your blood pressure hasn't been elevated here as mine hasn't. The way I see it is that if we don't challenge each other we don't grow. I guess I'm the odd one here though in that I want to not only challenge my programming skills I want to challenge my thisnking regarding all other issues in life too. For the life of me I have never understood those who cannot tolerate these kinds of discussions one one hand and who get mad at those who are able. Go figure.

Now.. What I really want to do is continue the discussion of cryptography in the 'real' message area. <g>