Hi Will,

>Hey Doug,
>
>I understand the notion is completely inconceivable. Hell, I am not that much of an idiot, just trying to have a little fun dude. <s> The transfer of ownership statement is simply to make a point. The perception of FoxPro will never change. It’s too late. Microsoft is a locomotive running at full steam and you’re either on board or run over. I am on board but FoxPro is being dragged.

I guess we'll need to agree to disagree then. I think VFP has a car of its own and is every much a part of said 'train' as any other Microsoft product. I surely think that every marketing dollar spent on VFP is a good thing and, remember, Ken stated that the $$ spent for VFP 8 would increase, so for me, while I understand that every product has a natural life I don't think VFP is there yet. In a few years? Sure, perhaps but I'm not going to count it out yet.

Thanks for your thoughts!!!

>
>
>>Hi Will,
>>
>>>Doug,
>>>
>>>I am just stating the only way FoxPro will ever be truely marketed to anyone other than the FoxPro community a big change would need to happen like transfer of ownership.
>>
>>I'd disagree. Transfer the ownership and IMO the product dies on the spot.
>>
>>Here's why.. The desire needed to purchase the product would have to be loaded on top of a new(er) desire to increase the marketing for the product. IOW, I think there are two issues; one, to increase marketing and two, to purchase or not? Mircosoft already has made the purchasing decision and I'm glad they did otherwise I doubt we'd be having this discussion today. Where are Clipper and dBASE again? For a new company to purchase the product and increase marketing expenses is far more $$ than to just have MSFT increase marketing $$s. Microsoft has already stated its case and they're not going to change it as far as I know..
>>
>>Ok.. Having said that then IMO the next issue applies to both approaches. Whether Microsoft or some new company the bottom line is still going to be, "Will I sell enough copies to warrent the marketing (and all other VFP-business-related) expense?" (and now the purchase expense) I think that Microsoft would know how to make this decision far better than a bunch of wanna-be businessmen programmers (most, not all) who may be good at developing products but perhaps not so good at building a successful business - relative to the in-house talent Microsoft already has. Who here has built a business big enough to handle Visual FoxPro again??
>>
>>THen you'd have the issue that this new company would need to spend additional millions to be able to gain the kind of market presence and name recognition Microsoft already enjoys. This is a marketing issue, remember?
>>
>>Thirdly you'd now be in the position of competeing directly against a company that a) has 40+ BILLIONS of dollars cash on hand and b) is NOT known for competeing to lose <g> and c) most likely would have an alternative product for the same market slot. Look, if it's good enough for you to make money on why wouldn't Microsoft want to make money out of that slot?? They (Microsoft) are known for going into new business areas?. Why just give one up???
>>
>>IOW, either compete with Microsoft or against Microsoft. Either way you and I have to compete. It is my understanding that they threw the dumb brother down the well. <g> While I admire companies that compete against Microsoft (and survive <g>) I'm at something of a loss as to the names of those who are really surpassing Microsoft in any area Microsoft deems necessary for their core business strategies. Or where Microsoft isn't catching up.
>>
>>Fourthly, you'd have to convince the current developers to join you. What is their incentive? Then you'd need to pay them (more most likely to get them to jump) as you were ramping up development, production, distribution channels & relationships, contracts, sales people in at least the same areas as Microsoft, insurance, buildings, business cards, telephones, etc, etc, etc.. You're surely not going to run this from your basement office are you? <g> You'd also need to be charismatic enough to get them to follow you and I submit that anyone that charismatic already has gainful employment. <s>
>>
>>If you didn't convince them to join you be prepared to spend more millions finding and training the calibre of programmers needed to extend the product (now, think this through) in areas not yet disclosed by Microsoft! IOW, your programmers would almost have to be psychic to stay ahead of the curve and how in the world do they do that??? They've just cut themselves off from the knowledge engine. And remember, that core technology is now in a lot of other Microsoft technologies. What technological edge do you bring to the table they don't already have?
>>
>>SO now you've spent a whole lot of money and you have more money to need to earn than Microsoft has.
>>
>>And you want to compete against them?? <g>
>>
>>Personally, I think the whole idea of buying the product is evidence of a lack of business savvy or perhaps a case where emotions are triumphing over intellect. Who in the world would purchase a product where they cannot make money??
>>
>>Do you work for free? If you do you make my case and if you do not you also make my case I'd think. This is all about making money in the software business - a skill few truly posess IMO. A living? Perhaps. But enough and then some to support the infrastructure? It is a very tough business - unless you think that all the companies that have gone out of business were just plain stupid or didn't care. Someone might say, "Microsoft drove them out.", to which I'd respond, "So, you want to compete with them then?"
>>
>>Maybe some billionaire will come along and take up the cause but that in no way makes it a good business decision, does it? If it's a good business decision to sell the product do you think Microsoft is going to let the product go, do you?? Perhaps but there would have to be a compelling reason like a Justice Department ruling or something. We'd all have plenty of time to adapt.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I've read so many threads complaining about FoxPro marketing directed at Ken. Don't shoot the messager is my belief. I think he's been very honest about Microsoft's marketing position for FoxPro.
>>
>>Yes, indeed! Ken's a straight shooter. The problem candidly IMO is that some people just cannot learn to accept reality. Microsoft is going to do what they are goping to do - take it or leave it. Either learn to live with it or go away IMO - or work hard to get a position of influence where you can positively contribute to the community and Microsoft or run the risk of being thought of as not much more than a complainer. I have no problem whatsoever with folks griping at Microsoft but after going over this same territory for some 17+ years one gets tired of it. <s>
>>
>>The more I listen to and read these discusion the more I conclude that most software developers don't know beans from buttermilk about business.
>>
>>Some folks would complain if you hung them with a new rope. <g> "It's too stiff!" < BG >
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Of coarse I am not very happy with Microsoft's treatment of VFP. I've got long three years invested in the development of a VFP product which we're about to release. With all the hype about .NET a popular question we're being asked is when is the .NET version going to be ready. I have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft. I love many of their products and especially VFP but hate the way they treat VFP, and indirectly me. They want to tell FoxPro users how how GREAT FoxPro is but go to great lengths to NOT tell anyone else.
>>
>>Well, I understand your pov but after dealing with this very issue for some 17 years I can tell you that the pain goes away after about ten more years.. *gd&rvvf*
>>
>>Seriously, I do understand Will. That won't change the facts of what is actually happening, will it? <s> If not, accept the facts, make the best of it, and adapt.
>>
>>>
>>>It truly is a dysfunctional relationship!
>>
>>I think more on the developer's side candidly, but, yes, there are some issues with Microsoft.
>>
>>Look, I'm quite sympathetic to those who feel emotionally slighted because Bill Gates doesn't come hold their hand (I'm being facetious - Duh. <g>) but for goodness sakes deal with the reality of what currently exists. Fight for your changes and improvements with Microsoft, not against them!
>>
>>>
>>>Will
>>
>>>snip<