John,

>>True enough. It's the court of public opinion.
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>It's *a* court of public opinion, and an unreasonable on at that at times..

True enough, but you've placed yourself into it. I think my points would stand regardless of the particular community. At some point communication skills (or lack thereof) will out.

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>That's why people are ignoring a lot of what you're posting and a disagreeing with a lot of your reasoning.
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>Just because people do not respond, it does not necessarily follow that I am being ignored. I think quite the opposite is true.

No one knows I suppose so the conjecture is, I suppose, a reflection of one's inner thoughts. We've both expressed them. <g>

> As for who is openly disagreeing with me, there is more inflamatory langauge than anything else.

But why?



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>Your posts contain much useful technical merit IMO (though I'm hardly an expert) but that's not what I see people responding to.
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>Talk about a left-handed compliment..< bg >..

*chuckle* I've never made any bones about the notion that I think you're hightly technically qualified whatsoever. I think you
sour your own milk" but the style of delivery and what I'n saying is a) that's totally unnecessary, b) lowers the overall quality of your usually good responses and c) causes you unnecessary grief.

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>They're responding to you on a personal basis, not because they're spoiling for a fight but because you're manner of communicating is a great irritant.
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>Really??? I don't think I am the one lobbing personal attacks here.

John, you often come across as abrupt and abrasive. Whether or not you care has nothing to do with dealing with the (often reflexive I'll certainly admit) reader's responses. If you care then you'll do something about it. If you do not, and this is what you broadcast, intentionally or not, has a LOT to do with why folks respond the way they do.

I always know that when you weigh in on any given subject that two things will happen.

1) You'll initially give a technically good response and
2) You''ll do so in such a manner that you end up in some sort of online fight.

That Steve Black comes after you with such vigor is IMO a result of many many palers of the above.


>The people that get irritated with me will always be irritated with me.

IMO this you could change if it's of any consern to you. If it's not then don't blame them. You've just poked them again in the figurative eye by making that kind of assertion. At some point you're going to have to take some responsibility for causing bringing this on yourself.

> If they choose to take and accept things on a personal basis and respond in kind, then that is their cross they will have to bear...

*shrug* You make my point. Why not do the mature adult thing and take a little responsibility and at least try to deal with this?? IMO it is way not normal to not do so. And, I don't mean become slavish to the opinions of others. I just mean be civil and demonstrate a little respect.



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>What I am suggesting is that while it is certainly your right to post in this manner that this trait will eventually cause you GREAT PERSONAL GRIEF.
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>I have to tell you that it has not nor will it cause me one iota of great personal grief or personal grief of any other magnitude.

Time will tell, won't it.

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>It's entirely your choice but don't be surprised when your world starts to crumble.
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>That is an interesting thing to say. You make it seem as though what happens here is a big deal.

I happen to think it is actually. Maybe you just cannot comprehend how enormous this can become....

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>What I'm asserting, based upon a few years of close, personal observations is that, candidly, your communications skills are in need of adjustment. They stink at times. You assert that you "pretty much have to move on" and what I'm saying is that when you assert this attitude, right, obligation or reason that you are essentially telling the other party(s) that their opinions (and them by association) are of no value by virtue of your saying so. IMO this will affect your future professional life and perhaps your personal one as well.
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>Everybody's opinion has value.

Make sure you let them know this as you are talking with them!!!

> I think you are going a bit overboard here..

Perhaps. Wouldn't be the first nor the last time I'm sure. <s> I understand pretty much what I'm doing I think.


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>What I'm saying is that this personal trait is going to continue to cause you great grief. Your response is your own business - until you start interacting with another human being. Then it is the business of the individual you're interacting with, be it judge, jury, lawyer, business or personal colleague, or whatever.
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>I do agree with this Doug...

I figured you might. <s>

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>>Serious denial John.
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>Seriously making mountains out of molehills Doug...

Well, that's all a matter of opinion, wouldn't you say? You have to admit that few here have at least tried to explain these issues to you. Think about that when you decide who cares about you and who doesn't - as a human being. Us "Bible Thumping Maniacs" do have some redeeming qualities you know. <g>

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>>Or you like the pain. <g>
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>No pain to be felt....

Not necessarily . Numb to the pain perhaps.

Leporasy does that to the body and pretty soon you don't have any limbs. <s>

Willfully allowing one's self to become to these kinds of issues is IMO very dangerous.

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>>And totally extraneous and unnecessary, which is the sad part.
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>I think this sums up *your* post very well...

I'm comfortable you feel that way.

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>That's all well and good but we're discussing public discussions and the ability or lack thereof to have them aren't we? We're NOT talking about some little scorecard where you tally the numbers for or against John. We're just talking about different ways for one to conduct one's self in a most effective manner in their public discourses.
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>News flash Doug, you are not the sole arbiter of what is correct or incorrect conduct...

Indeed I am not. I think I understand this better than you perhaps and I would also suggest that there's far more going on here than perhaps you're aware of. <s>


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>You may well feel justified in your abrupt manner with those whom you may disagree but my assertion is that regardless of how you justify these mannerism that is irrelevant.
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>so that pretty much you are closed minded to my POV... Fine...

You've done a "John" here by slicing this portion of my paragraph off and you're acting like I'm trying to be mean or cruel. Sorry.. I won't take your bait John. As I suggested it is how others view you that is important, not how you view yourself in the sens I'm suggesting. You have the power to positively or negatively impact that and which choice you make is entirely yours - both in the right to that choice but also in the result of that choice. All I'm trying to do is point this out.

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>It's how others view your mannerisms, not you. NO matter what your response to this point will change the fact that at some point in your future life you will at some point need the help of someone else. At that point you may well discover you're on your own as you have cut so many people off for so long in order to "just move on" that you're all alone, without anyone to help.
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>I think you are greatly over-valuing things here now.... The fact is, this is nothing more than a debate on a topical issue. If you don't like what I am saying, then ignore it. But please, enough already with the moral judgments...

Maybe I've just gotten a little too close here... You and I do not live in an amoral world John. Maybe this is what you don't "get" and why folks get upset with you so often. Maybe there really is something universal about how we treat each other as human beings you're trying desparately to rationalize.. *shrug* Just a guess on my part but I've seen this patter over and over again for the last 30+ years.

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>The issue is not how JVP interacts with JVP but how JVP interacts with others. I presume you are enamored with your relationship with yourself and your own opinions - apparently to the exclusion of others.
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>You are definitely beating a dead horse here Doug. FWIW, I have conferred with those people whose opinions I value greatly...

I think that's what I just said...

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>Thing is John, no matter where you go or what you do, as long as you carry these traits with you, there they are. You cannot escape yourself.
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>Ok...
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>Be that as it may, you are, of course, able to exercise your free will to your own hurt. Or not.
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>As you have said before...We have now come full circle again...
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>The underlying assumption here is that Microoft must have a constant stream of revenues to sustain itself. In that we'd be in total agreement. MY euphimism for this is that they are "top feeders" and as such will naturally have less interest if products like VFP. I can live with that candidly as I think that VFP has an enduring place in the panoply of MSFT products. Will it ever rise to the level of VB or .NET? I doubt it. Can it be an effective and productive 'player' in the .NET sandbox? Sure. Can VFP today provide services and speeds .NET developers are still only dreaming about? Sure. Is .NET a great platform? From the looksof it it surely is!
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>Fox is an effective and productive player, for the Fox developer. It will never get beyond that realm.

I do not, nor have I ever disagreed with this whatsoever. IMO it's just not an issue and never has been.

> If you have a market that is not being actively nutured so that it can grow, it will decline. As for speed, for many years, it has been touted how fast VFP works with strings. Still, it has never caused folks to pitch what they are using in favor of VFP. These supposed technical superior features you speak of have not made for a compelling argument for non-VFP folks to come onto this side of the road.

I understand, but the sky is also not falling with respect to VFP either.

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>This is simply my take on things. It is not meant to offend anybody, it is simply my opinion. If you don't like it or agree with it, fine. But don't make it out to be anything more than just my opinion..

I have no trouble with this whatsoever John. As I've said, I usually enjoy your postings until you do a "John".

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>Who cares? .NET will go away some day too. I'm not sure about COBOL though> <g> I think it's here forever. <g>
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>You may be right about Cobol. But IAC, you support my point that tools come and go. Yet, when one talks about the future about VFP, all of a sudden, the normal rules don't or should not apply. I contend that many have this personal/co-dependent relationships with the product. Perhaps the VB world is no different. I just don't see it manifested in the same way..

Sure tools come and go. We've no argument there at all. And, the rules do aply to VFP but some folks on both sides of the discussion are bending those rules I think.


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>Not the community - Microsoft itself. Look, CA and A-T both effectively killed CLipper and dBASE, particularyl compared to Microsoft's moves with FoxPro. Did the community help? Sure, but with out the ongoing committment on MSFT's behalf to fund continued development....
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>I think you underestimate the power of the VFP community here. If the community was not as rabid as it is/was, I question whether the product would be here today..

Perhaps I do. But, if that's so then the future of VFP is bright then, correct? <s> You see, IMO you're trying to have it both ways. Which one is it? The VFP community will keep the product alive or not?