Hi Victor

See comments inline.

>>"It doesnt even use the VFP DBC!"
>>
>>and when I point out that you are wrong you change your criticism to:
>>
>>"Ok it allows use of the DBC but uses its own extended stuff that you have >>to setup on yer own in order to get the form development side of it too >>work."
>>
>>So, one minute you say VPM doesn't use the VFP DBC, the next minute (when >>challenged) you say it does - but now we are supposed to believe you that >>VPM uses it badly (when 24 hours ago you were telling everyone it didn't >>use it at all). Interesting ?!?

>Not the first time I've been mistaken, probably not the last (that's why I >spend time out here). If you read the VPM documentation they don't use the >DBC, they use free-tables (even in the older example apps). Reason is you >don't need it because it has it's own built in data dictionary, which IS >necessary to utilize the screen creation gizmos....IF you follow the >documentation.

It should also be in the documentation that while the data engine can use free-tables you are by no means forced to do so. My application is written around SQL Server and there are no free tables at all. The data engine uses a private DBC for the system data and the application data is split across a number of DBCs. I have a number of installations were the system data is stored in non SQL Server systems while the application data is SQL Server and no re-programming was required. All data access (whether system or user) is via views and DBCs.

>>"Heck you can't even use Source Safe with it unless you blow more $ on >>some stupid program they sell you so you can."
>>
>>Again when told that I use SourceSafe with VPM without any additional $ >>modules, you change the criticism to:
>>
>>"Yes & I was able to acomplish this as well...of course promatrix likes >>you to use their project manager & not so much the VFP one so yeah you can >>get it to work...with a few extra steps EVERY time you want to checkin->>checkout."
>>
>>So, one minute you are claiming you can't use SourceSafe with VPM (without >>an additional $ module) and the next minute (when challenged) you say it >>does. Yet again, we are supposed to now believe you that it does it badly >>and requires extra steps every time. Not that I think you are listening >>but FYI you can open VFP without VPM or you can even open the project >>manager within VPM. There are no extra steps at all. There are exactly the >>same number of steps regardless of whether you are working with a VPM >>application as there are with a "pure, non-framework" VFP application.

>mmmm...When I did it with VMP7E and VMP6 there were extra steps. You >acutally have to RUN a VFP app to get into promatrix - something that's not >required for the other frameworks. Problem that I had is you had to get out >of that to get into some of the other things - and then you have all these >objects & vars floating around that the promatrix tool creates...plus they >DO have a sourcesafe tool they suggest you use.
>On the plus side they do have a new xcase2vmp or vmp2xcase something like >that gizmo that's available. Haven't used that one but it sounds >interesting. Of course the latest version of xcase does this on its own too >so if you weren't using the VPM datadictionary in the first place you >wouldnt need this tool either!

Promatrix do have a development interface that you can run but you are free to simply load VFP and open your entire application using the conventional Project Manager (from what you say this appears to be what the other frameworks offer so you can have the best of both worlds). You then have complete access to all source code just as if you had written it yourself. If you decide to run the development interface you still can open the VFP Project Manager at any time simply by clicking on a toolbar button. You can add your own programs to a developer menu so you can have access to any favourite utility programs, etc.

Yes, they do have a SourceSafe product but I don't need the extra features so I quite happily work without it with no penalties at all. I can get access to SourceSafe either inside the Promatrix developer interface or in VFP itself.

>>I could pick holes in the other "faults" you have with VPM and your >>subsequent changes in response when challenged but I am not going to waste >>anyone's time as it will achieve nothing. If it is important to you >>that "your framework is better than mine" then I will agree to that if it >>makes you happy.

>"better" depends on what it is you're doing. It's only my feeling that >maxframe is better and I made that judgement after making no less than 50 >maxframe apps and maybe 6 promatrix ones. What I found was that for sizable >or more complicated apps maxframe was better because the development cycle >was shorter, more hassle free, and when I wanted to step outside the >framework there is no doubt maxframe won that hands down.

That is your opinion and I can't argue against it as I have never used MaxFrame. If my memory serves me well Steve Buttress has used both and his opinions are reversed. At the end of the day they are just opinions rather than statement of facts.


>>The risk in making sweeping statements is that if you are found out it can >>un-earth you as someone who simply wants to throw spears.

>This is true. At one point I wrote up something with all the issues/qualms >I had with VPM compaired to VMP. I wish I still had a copy of it - I will >see if the person I sent it to still has it....I made it as I was using >both and is going to be 100 times more detailed and accurate than what I >can remember off the top of my head. I've used VPM, VMP, VFE, MM and >CodeMine - and IMO the last one I'd tell anyone to buy out of all those is >VPM. That's just me though.

It would be good if you could find it as it would be useful to see if we can help clarify some of the issues in case there are any other mis-understandings.

Regards,

Aaron