Alex

>>"... CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW establishing religion, or ...."
>>
>>Show me the law which breaches church and state.
>>
>>A person saying a benediction prayer at a school graduation is not a 'law' being made, it is a right being exercised, a right given by the 1st Amendment, which says " the right of free speech shall not be abridged...". When you limit what a person can say in public you have abridged the right of free speach. The same goes for the 2nd amendment to.
>>Tyranny by the minority is still tyranny.
>
>Yes, a person has that right. The State does not. You or anyone else can pray at school. I am not talking of limiting anyone. I've no idea where you got that. What I am saying is that the State cannot force non-believers to pray. Adding the words to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954 was wrong then and it it wrong today. To repeat: kids can pray in school and in public. They should not be forced to against their wishes or their beliefs in a public school. It is not tyranny by the minority. It is called Separation between Church and State.

If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck..... <g>

The problem with this whole discussion is that people forget that the 'state' is supposed to be, at best, neutral. It currently is not neutral. It is forcing a godless point of view upon those who do believe by virtue of prohibiting the free exercise of faith on public grounds. That is not neutral. The state would only be establishing a state religius system (like the Church of England that the founders were trying to avoid) by actively promoting one religious point of view over another.

To use a simple analogy the State has put the gearbox in reverse as a response to a false notion that being in Neutral is the equivilent of Drive. Neutral is not the equivilent of active promotion of any particular pov.

Personally, I think that each community should establish rules that allow for any and all points of view. For example, have a designated public park that allows for menorahs, creches, and little buddahs or golden cows for that matter.

By actively promoting the "no god" position the state has actually promoted the religious faith of athiesm - at the expense of everryone else. That sure doesn't sound neutral to me.

I quite agree that we don't need the US Church of ( you-fill-in-the-blank ). That includes your point of view or mine, and the problem is that you seem to want to include yours at the expense of everyone else's. IOW, your position is no more "neutral" than mine is and this is the error. This is all like the oh-so-clever abuse of the English language that the pro-abortionists use. They veil a pro-abortion position as "choice" when choosing not to abort is an equally legitimate choice.

Like the deceptive practice of the pro-environmentalists who say they are lobbying "for clean air" as though those who oppose them want dirty air! <g>

So, these positions are built upon deception and guile and slick use of language the snake oil salesman would be proud of rather than an honest, open dialog.

Athiests can no more prove the absence of the existence of god via intellect only that believers can prove his existence by intellect only. Both sides require a postion of faith. Faith equals religious belief. That is, a position held to by more than raw logic. Athiesm is a religious system, just as much as we "Bible thumping maniacs" <bg> may have. There does exist an athiest dogma you know...

The participants all should at least have the honesty to have a level playing field don't you think?

I'm quite comfortable that as an athiest you do not want to pray. Your inability to draw enough tolerance from athiesm to allow me to pray wherever and whenever, and even at a school graduation is everyone wants it is IMO something of an example of those who wish to use their weaknesses to make everyone else as they are. I'll continue to respect your right to be a fool but I'd like the same in return. <g>

Just remember that when you stand before God to give an account of your life that you were warned. This shouldn't bother you at all because god doesn't exist, right? If it does bother you - why?