John,

>Doug
>
>Hate to pee on your parade

Pee away. <g> I do not think of myself as being perfect, you know. I'm sure there's a lot I can learn, which is why I enjoy these discussions. I'd rather live my life than just rot - intellectually, morally, spiritually and so forth. <s> If I am going to challenge others I fully expect the same in return. While intense at times I don't take it personally.

>, but "Islamic" and "American" are not mutually exclusive.

I understand this very well.

> You have a fairly strong Islamic community right there in the USA. Raping, pillaging? Less advanced than you?

Of course not -but- if you dig a little into, say the culture of those who live here you'll find some interesting things. Let me give you two personal examples:

1) I used to do standup training. Lotus 1-2-3, dBASE, Rbase, etc.. One of our students was a nice gal who worked for Adnan Kashogi, the famous arms dealer. Now Mr. Kashogi was, by all accounts, a very sophisticated fellow. She brought to class two picture albums filled with pictures of his customized plane (707 I believe). Gold plated fixtures, hologram room dividers - the works. She also related how difficult it was to convince Mr. Kashogi to not slap the pilots.

2) I know of another fellow who was big in the computer business in Southern Californian who was Iranian. Without going into the details let's just say that his personal behavior was so bad that he also used to slap his employees and treated his wife so badly that she divorced him.

I dare say that those here in the USA who you and I would perhaps consider model citizens are either considered by their fellow Muslims as compromised or you don't know all there is to know.

I stand by my general statement. I understand that I seem to be harsh. Not so. I am trying to apply a consistent standard across the board without regard to political correctness. We haven't started discussing the faults of Christendom yet you know. <g> I'm probably harder on them than most others so don't think I'm being xenophobic here. <s>

I'm trying to point out that people, for the most part, really do not want the truth.

Look.. Who was the author who wrote a truth-filled book a few years back (Satanic Verses) and there was no attempt to hide the fact that he had a religious death warrant on his head.

I do not call that cultured. Do you?

>
>When I was there in May I saw a very reasoned plea by a leader of the Islamic community asking that Americans do not make the mistake of judging Islam by the actions of a few, any more than you judge "Christianity" by what happened at Waco.

First of all, I wouldn't judge Christianity by what happened at Waco but I'd be sorely tempted to judge Ms. Reno and Mr. Clinton and some of the members of the BATF though. <g> But I do 'get' your point. And, candidly I agree with you. Still, those folks you may consider cultured are all-too-often considered as compromised, secular or something else less than good by their fellow Muslims.

Let me ask you what I asked some of the others: Name for me the absolute best (in your judgement) example of an Islamic state. Let's look at the cold, hard facts for a little bit here.

>
>Regards

Ditto!