Hi Alex,

>>You once tried to pin this sort of spin on me, but you weren't this blunt. If there's an equivalent of the word "blasphemy" in the non-believer's world, this would be close to it. One of the major points in deciding that the existence of deities is to be irelevant is that that those who chose so take the responsibility. There's no more excuses, there's no upper hand whom you can blame when you fail, it's just you against the universe, with the rest of your kind on your or other side. How you fare is your own doing
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>>IOW, telling a non-believer that he still does believe in a god despite his own preference, is probably the same as if someone told you that you don't, even though you may imagine you do.
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>>Trying to fit myself into your definition of "master passion", I'm probably a one-member church, serving as a complete hierarchy (from the uppermost deity to the lowest acolyte) within my mind, but that wouldn't be a true picture. I don't have a master passion, unless the desire to have had a full life counts. And I surely don't serve it, far less obey. It's just something that may or may not come along, depending on too many factors, including my moods, coincidences, random events etc etc.
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>< APPLAUSE >
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>Dragan,
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>Well put! It is hard for DD (and others I imagine) to understand that,

*chuckle*

I understand what he's saying. The fact remains that all men follow some 'final authority' in their lives. I think you are not perhaps understanding my point. When I use a phrase like 'master passion' I'm not restricting myself to organized religions. I'm including any and all philosophies and drives and goals. It could be the pursuit of wealth, pleasure, power or whatever.

I think the trouble here comes from the differences between the way 'gods' have been defined in history vs the way we've sort of sanitized the approach in our culture. For example, go to India and they literally have millions of gods. The hate god, the love god the hunger god and so on. People actually worship these things. That's my point.

Have you ever seen someone 'worship' that sports car every Saturday for four hours, washing it just so. Or the fellow who lives for his lawn? That's his master passion; what he/she lives for. That is, by definition, what they worship - their 'god'.

>a) You can have a full life without "serving" any master.

Point anyone you'd like out to me and I can show you this is not true at all. Please, give me an example. Everyone serves sopmebody or something - perhaps just an idea.

>b) morality does not need religion. IOW You can be have a moral life whitout religion or the concept of a supernatural being watching over you as if you were a child incapable of doing anything good by yourself.

Well, I agree that people can hold positions of morality without a relationship with God, that's absolutely true. That doesn't mean that there is no connection between faith and those moral positions philosophically though. The whole notion of 'good' comes from the root word 'god', you know. <g> The 'trick' here is who and how that word ('good') gets its definition.

As far as how capable or incapable individuals are at behaving themselves I dare say you really don't want to go there. <g> All I need to do is point to the front page of any newspaper in this land to prove that man does indeed need help. Or should I point to the mere existence of laws? If man were able to govern himself he wouldn't need laws, would he? What about AA? Or what about all the billions spent on self-help materials?

You really don't want to make yourself look that foolish, do you? <g>

Now, some may be able to restrain themselves but Alex, I can absolutely guarantee you that if I knew all of your hidden traits there's something in there you're not proud of. Ever steal something? Lie? Cheat on a test? Fornicate (maybe only in your mind) with a friend's wife? Your insides aren't as clean as you'd like others to believe. Neither are mine and please don't read past that point. I'm not trying to run you down, only point out that mankind ain't as pretty as mankind likes to think about itself. Let's at least be honest. Man is pretty screwed up. What are the numbers... Only some 200 years in all of 6,000 of recorded history where there wasn't a war going on? I don't think we've come all that far....

But, can men be ethical without making the 'link' to God? Sure, you bet.