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UT's Tom and Jerry...
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Level Extreme
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Thread ID:
00680711
Message ID:
00689962
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>>Entropy is the measure of disorder in the Universe. The change in Entropy is given by dS = dW/T. The driving force in the Universe is that no matter what the process that is under consideration, be it naturally occuring or "intelligently" assisted by Man, it cannot occur unless there is an INCREASE in the Entropy of the Universe. An increase in order in a system means only that a greater increase in disorder occured in the surroundings, causing the net Entropy of the Universe to increase. The reverse has never been observed and is not possible. If you think otherwise you need only prove it to be awarded a PhD and win the Nobel prize on that basis alone.
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>This seems based on flawed thinking - it is not impossible for a system to become more ordered only extremely unlikely. Every specific order of particles in the system is as equally likely as any other specific order of particles - it is only to an outside observer that there appears to be some degree of order or disorder. To imply that an ordered system is impossible implies some force acting on the system to stop a specific ordering.

Read it again. I didn't say it was impossible for a system to become more ordered. I DID say that it is impossible for the net Entropy change of the Universe to be negative. If the Entropy of the system becomes negative the Etropy of the surroundings becomes more postive, resulting in a net postivie Entropy change of the Universe. These statements are based on the three Laws of Thermodynamics, which has been under constant testing since they were first formulated by Carnot over two hundered years ago. The rules can be expressed simply: You can't get more out of a process than what you put in. You can't even get out of a process what you put in. You can't get out of the game. You can't get more work out of a gallon of gasoline than the equivilent calories in that gallon. You can't even get that much work out of a gallon of gasoline. You can't get to Absolute Zero Kelvin.

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>It's just like the lottery - the order of numbers selected appears random, but you have an equal probability of winning if you pick the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6 every week as you do if you pick a random selection.

No, it's not like the lottery. The Entropy change of the Universe cannot be randomly positive or negative. It is ALWAYS positive. This is how we separate possible things from impossible things, which is why you will never see a spilt cup of coffee come together on the floor at the point of impact and then recombine and fly back up to the table. Nor will you ever see a set of billiard balls reform themselves into an ordered triangle on the billiard table, without intervention. Even with intervention the Entropy increase of the intervener is greater than the Entropy loss the balls experience when they are reordered.

I say it again: The only physical changes which can occur are those for which the Entropy of the Universe increases. Human intelligence has nothing to do with it and cannot change the outcome.
Nebraska Dept of Revenue
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