>Ahh, but the problem here is that an "outside force" (to use John's terms) created the situation.
>IOW, who made the box?

Ahh, but the problem here is that an "outside force" (to use John's terms) created the creator of the box.

Simply bringing everything back to the cyclical argument "God created everything" always leaves you asking "how was God created" and therefore you are no farther off than where you started. In fact, you're probably worse off.

Is there a reason you keep bringing this amazlingly incomplete conslusion up? How many times does it take someone to ask "Who created the universe where God exists" for you to realize that you do not have the final answer? Of yeah, the book says that noone created God. My bad.

Doug, try to think outside of the book once and a while.

>When their (the atoms) natural desire is to fly apart, how did they get forced together?

Natural desire? Do you really understand what you're talking about? True, there is energy that holds atoms together, and when the atom is no longer held together, that energy can be released. But how can particals have a "natural desire"? Thats ridiculous.

>And, given that all observations regarding order v non-order demonstrate that the universe is going only in one direction (order ---> non-order)

Cite?

>Therefore, this force, must have existed before (speaking in time-based terms) atoms and I suppose we can conclude safely, will continue to exist after (time-based) all the material universe ceases to exist, at whatever point that might be

Lol. You go from "before atoms" to "after all material". If you can prove that atoms aren't made of material, I suppose you have a point. But you can't.

>So.. This 'force' created the atoms by forcing them together, is a greater power than all the atoms in the universe,

What? How can you conclude this? Better question, how can you measure "which force is a greater 'power'". What do you mean by "power"? Are you assuming facts that are not in evidnce?

Here's a question, whats a greater power, a muscle, or the tissue that holds it together? I don't think there is an objective answer to this. I believe you've moved the discussion into the realm of subjectivity.