>>Ahh, but the problem here is that an "outside force" (to use John's terms) created the creator of the box.
>No, the creator of the box is where it stops.

Your whole life revolves around the fact that you will not question this fact. And you call me willfully blind? Hypocrite.

>You demonstrate a lack of theological knowledge.

I'm pretty sure thats an oxymoron.

>Let me explain again.. The God who is revealed in the Bible self declares Himself as being the "I AM". That is, He is self-existent and has no need whatsoever to rely upon anything for His existence. IOW< the problem you are having here comes from a too-small picture of the nature of God.

No, the problem I am having is that I see no objective proof of this anywhere, and without that, it is expected of any thinking individual to question this claim.

>How in the world can you or I really define a concept, oh, like 'eternity'?

I've been getting pretty close lately.

>And how many times will you persist in not accepting the plain words I type?

As many as it takes until objective proof of your position is presented.

>Sure.. If you'd just try and think at all. <g>

Whatever.

>The fact remains that a greater force is (perfect present tense) holding the atoms that comprise you and I and the entire universe together.

And the fact remains that a force is holding our solar system together. At one point, we didn't know the answer to that either, and you would be the first in line to suggest its God. Now, that solved, we have another question. Should we approach it less scientifically than how we approached the first question? Of course not.

>What is that force Mike?

I don't know.

And only an idiot would say that because I don't know, it must be God.

>>>And, given that all observations regarding order v non-order demonstrate that the universe is going only in one direction (order ---> non-order)
>>Cite?
>So, you assert thatyou are unable to see the order in nature? That the laws of physics always operate in the same manner? That a corn seed produceds a corn plant? That DNA controls results?

Your questions are not related to your claim that "the universe is only going in one direction". Please stay on topic.

>Not at all. I simply point out the fact that a greater power is holding the atoms together otherwise they would fly apart. Do you dispute this?

I'm disputing your words "greater power". Explain what greater power is and how it relates objectivly to what we're talking about.

>>Here's a question, whats a greater power, a muscle, or the tissue that holds it together? I don't think there is an objective answer to this. I believe you've moved the discussion into the realm of subjectivity.
>No, you're attempting toso do with this silly question.

How is that a silly question? Do you have any proof that shows that sub atomic material holding an atom together is philosophically different than sub muscle tissue holding a muscle together?

>In one sense the greater power is the mind that controls

I thought the greater power was inside, holding things together? Are you changing your story now, after I asked a "silly question"?

>What holds the atom together Mike?

Good question. Lets find out by starting with the question, rather than the answer, shall we?