I think a major issue is that there are so few formal learning opportunities for VFP. Check out any nightschool, or extended learning facility. They almost all teach VB and Java. I've yet to find one that teaches Fox. For a newbie who is looking to learn a language, formal training might mean a lot.

I can go to Centennial College here in Toronto, for example and take a 3 month course in Java or VB for very little cost. Try that with VFP. Doesn't exist.

What exists for VFP is very expensive private 5 day courses from consulting firms.

I understand that this is certainly a chicken and egg problem, but it is the way it is. For a newbie, VFP is not going to provide the best value for time on the learning curve.

Alan

>Hi!
>
>I agree with you that other factors are also very significant for marketing, like in the case you described. However, I compared VFP just with VB. I do not know much about other systems, community size etc. to judge on this. It is just my experiense of VFP learning by new developers.
>
>>Vlad,
>>
>>I agree with everything you've said here, except maybe for the part about VFP's monster size being a major problem with bringing on newbies. It is huge, and maybe to a newbie it looks daunting, but the reason I have to wonder if that really is a major factor is 'Java'. I assume you've looked at that monster too. Now part of the reason for Java's popularity is that it's free, but the fact is that the huge and complex list of functions and classes in that giant doesn't seem to have stopped newbies from wrestling with it.
>>
>>The marketing (at least at the very beginning) seemed to be mostly word of mouth, and Java just took off. It appears to be slowing down somewhat now, but the point I'm really trying to make is that the hugeness of the system didn't seem to stop newbies from at least trying to learn it.
>>
>>Alan
>>
>>>Hi!
>>>
>>>I understand you, but do you know current number of VFP community members to compare how it is improved? What you're saying requires accurate statistics, that seems is not available because nobody questioned people about VFP.
>>>
>>>As about number of downloads, this could not be used for correct statistics, as I already pointed.
>>>
>>>I do not think VFP would get larger user base, if yes, then not too much. There are no _conceptually_ different features compare to VFP7, except better XML support. I agree, VFP8 is much better, but it is much better for VFP developers, not for marketing.
>>>
>>>For better marketing, VFP requires to have support of call-back functions, creating of ActiveX controls using VFP, and simplification of language elements/development, because it is too complex to learn completely and not comfortable to search for required feature because tonnes of functions and commands. Compare to VB - it has much less functions and commands, but uses a lot of components. So, instead of searching through tonnes of functions I can type an object name (for example, File System Object) and get list of functions in that chpater only (files handling). This saves a lot of developer's time if that developer is newbie, because remembering of each function/method/system variable name is hard and lengthy process, and searching through help file takes time. To bring more newbies to VFP, it require some simplification for newbies, otherwise they will go for VB just after first look to VFP monster :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>>I know it would be difficult for them to keep track of such information. I was really more curious as to how many had downloaded it because I think making a free public beta like this will get people who normaly wouldnt try it to experiment with it. If that happens then perhaps VFP will get a larger user base - which of course means VFP's life-span gets longer and then more jobs available.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>>If there is such information, it will show number of downloads and not a number of people. I know a few developers around that downloaded it 2 and even 3 times.
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, I do not think it is possible at all because VFP 8 beta download is now available from many WEB sites. Do you know what is needed to track all these WEB sites? :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Also, I do not think this information is needed for MS either. They probably would not account number of beta downloads to claculate price for VFP8 final release or something like that. So why they would track this at all? < s >
>>>>>
>>>>>>I would like to know how many people have downloaded VFP8 Beta. Does anyone know if Microsoft would release this kind of information?