Hi Tom!

Hope all of you have had a great Thanksgiving so far...

Let me give you a couple of my assumptions to help you understand where I'm approaching this issue from:

1) No health care ever, at any time in history will ever be perfect.

2) The US federal government has in recent years so fooled with laws and regulations that the US health care is, in reality, no longer an illustration of free enterprise.

3) Legal judgements have in many, but not all, cases been so exorbitant that medical doctors have sought shelter behind corporate veils and insurance (O&D and other type) barriers. How many obstetricians are giving up the practice as a direct result of legal harm? Too many.

4) Corporations have indeed been formed by consortia of doctors to boost profits and reduce both tax and legal risks, thus isolating the typical doctor from the typical patient. Again, not always, but more now than before.

5) The costs of new medical innovations has, as it should be, been passed on to the consumer.

6) Consumers (patients) have demanded more and more innovations in an effort to extend life, often with unreasonable goals and expectations. This has often been driven by unrealistic expectations born from the advertising industry.

7) A very large portion of our medical dollars go towards discretionary services. There is an awful lot more money to be made as a plastic sugrgeon in a metropolitan area than a family practitioner in some rural setting where people pay in cows, turkeys, pigs, corn and services. Thus diverting needed talent away from core services.

8) Mankind is still often afraid to die but all men still do. Still, many good and wonderful medical advancements have come from the research.

9) A generalized depersonalization of society combined with a growing general narcissim and selfishness among the US population has led to more useage of 3rd party health care responses. IOW, we're a lot more willing to shove grandmother into a nursing home rather than accept the personal sacrifices that would be required by denying ourselves to provide home health care. IOW, we often want someone else to pay for it, thus driving up costs.

10) Regardless of all of this we are still the most generous nation on Earth without question.

11) Compassion is still very strong among many people in our land.

12) Some still think they can legislate compassion and force others to so be.

13) I dare say that even with all the faults of the general US health care system it is still the best in the entire world. Sure, the Queen of England gets great health care but I'd trade our dental services for theirs any day of the week (for example). Is there anyone here willing to stand up and defend the UK dental system vis a vis the US system for example?

Finally, where do people go for their health care? The US? Canada? Great Britan? Somalia? Israel? Morrocco?

Where do people go?

Also.. Even the most indigent in our nation have better health care than almost the entire planet.

Now.. As to whether or not a socialized system is better than a system based upon the free market I will always go for the free market system as long as the market is truly free of overly-burdensome regulations and legal threats.

Our system is IMO goofed up to the degree that people are selfish (wanting huge settlements), unrealistic (fix everything for nothing), vain (plastic surgery rather than needed care), greed (corporations, trial lawyers, individuals looking for the brass ring, etc), government regulations (control, power, ego) and so forth.

My best friend's mom and dad took care of his grandfather for about seven (7) years at home. They voluntarily gave up some 9-11% of their entire life's expectancy to place themselves in a position wherr they couldn't go to dinner or leave the house when they wanted. They gave up, for the sake of the grandad, their ability to travel and visit grandchildren and family. They did not put him in a home even though he had the resources. Why? Because of their values.

My nephew just today has gone to Hawaii for about a week. We do not expect Rich to live until the end of this year as a result of the effects os Leukemia and cancer (t-cell & b-cell type carcinoma). A local lawyer who often advertises for accident protection gave them the free use of his condo for the entire time. Plus, many others have pitched in to help out as well.

Candidly Tom, I think the problem is a spiritual one at its core. Mankind is all too often selfish in a very ugly sense even though he doesn't have to be. IMO it is this fatally short-sighted self-centerdness that is at the root of the problem.

Doctors, nurses and all other health care professionals have so often stepped up to the plate and given of themselves one is loathe to say anything negative about the profession even though there are many in the profession not worthy of its credo, "Do no harm." These harm others and the profession as a direct result of their selfishness and grees just as much as the politician who writes laws to gain votes or the lawyer who goes beyond common-sense settlements and looks more for a retirement plan than a just and fair response.

So, the problem is all of us in one sense - to the degree we are so selfish we promote our own benefit at the expense of someone else's.

But... Neither you nor I can force someone else to give and that's why our system will eventually fail like so many others have and will slip into mediocrity if we persist in advancing a system that forces others to take responsibility for me. Compassion forced is not compassion.

Jesus (God) was moved with compassion and healed all who came to Him. At the same time He said, "Go, and sin no more." IOW, be responsible. That is certainly a worthy example to follow. A little selfless giving wouldn't hurt I suppose. <s>

Regardless, all segments of our society are still so much better off than anywhere else.




>Doug;
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>The health care industry in the United States does not address a rather large segment of our population. If you have money, insurance or both you will receive medical care of some sort. The type of care is dependent upon the quality of physicians and in the case of HMO’s, a clerk determines life and death situations all too often. Let us say that our health care system is less than perfect. If you are able to afford health care in this country then you are fortunate.
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>Should we dismiss all those persons who cannot afford health care in the United States? In California, we have made improvements in assisting those without insurance to have access to medical care. There are so many negative stories about the health care system. An aside: Even those who receive medical care are at risk when you consider that more patients are killed by doctors in this country than the number of people killed by guns.
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>Our recent history in medical care, say the last fifty years has changed. Fifty years ago your family doctor made house calls. Thirty years ago doctors became corporations and invested in businesses and real estate and began a indifferent attitude with patients and the medical system.
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>Twenty years ago hospitals decided to compete with each other and obtained the best of every type of machine available such as MRI’s and the ability to treat many medical specialties. There was and is so much redundancy of available service that many hospitals are under utilized. The patients have to pay increased cost to pay off the debt of under utilized medical facilities. It has been stated the city of Seattle has more MRI’s than the entire country of Canada!
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>Ten years ago the medical insurance industry, led by many medical doctors, decided to change things. Today the insurance industry decides what they will treat and what they will not treat. Clerks read a script that has been predefined and decide if a patient will receive treatment. Health care has been taken out of the hands of the physician and placed into the hands of a minimum wage employee.
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>What is the answer to the question of medical care for a nation? If you have money you have access to medical care. What about those that do not have access? What do they do?
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>By the way my wife is closely tied to the medical industry and we have discussed these issues for over 30 years. We have many horror stories about medical care or others and ourselves in life threatening situations. It is not a joke to be wheeled into the trauma center at U.C. Davis and told by the head doctor, “You are going to die”!, and then have a medical worker ask you, “Who is your insurance carrier and what is your policy number”! Medical care. Such a term. Those in the medical profession all too often express indifference to patients. Our “Me only”! society can be very revolting.
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>Tom - Glad to be alive in spite of “medical care”. Prayer helps more than one might know.