>I think it's time to start a little snipping here.
>

Agreed!

>snip...
>
>Having said that, I don't think that the $11 an hour represents this level of exploitation. I am well aware that minimum wage in most parts of the country is a joke because it is soooo far below realistic needs. But, others on this thread have pointed out a number of careers with similar salaries as the $11 per hour extraploated over a year. As a result, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that the $11 is in the "exploitation" range. (As an aside, it seems to me that most people are having an issue with the fact that an $11 rate seems to indicate that programming is worth as much as some "lower level" jobs, and not that it raises a spectre of masses of shoeless programmers begging for bread.)
>
>Well, I can't see myself agreeing that the fact that there is exploitation in more than one career area, denies the fact of exploitation in any one area.
>

This is an interesting point of debate. In order to judge whether a situation represents exploitation, should you look within a career field, or should you look at the situation regardless of career fields? Certainly, the definition of a poverty line (see more on this below), and the related point of exploitation, will vary by many factors, geography being a major one. But, is exploitation relative to prior salary? I'm not sold on this idea.

I met a friend of a friend a few years ago who was making $225k a few years ago, right out of college(!), drawing cartoons for entertainment web sites (no, I am not kidding). Today, I hear from our mutual friend that he is making $22 k for the same. 10% of what he made six years ago! Is he being exploited, or was he simply spoiled by the higher salary in 1997?


>I do have to ask though. $11.00 an hour. I assume that there is, in the US, as in Canada, a 'poverty line'? Where exactly is that line, and is it realistic?
>


Uh-oh... don't get me started! <bg> The US Census poverty threshold for 2002, for a family of four with two adults, is $18,859. Is this a low number? A high number? Well, that all depends on WHERE in the united states you live. I had a prior career in statistics, and these aggregate macro numbers drive me crazy (in all types of fields). $18,859 means one thing in Tampa, Fl, another thing in New York City, and a third thing in Vintown Ohio.

Want to know how bad the economy is in New York City? 20% of New York City residents live below this poverty line. But just about anyone will tell you that the poverty line quoted above is laughable for New York. So, more likely, there are many many more people in New York living in poverty. Pretty high numbers!

So, how does all of this impact on our discussion of market manipulation? Well, it's more complicated, for sure, than we can discuss in these snippets. And, we've each made some good points. My final summary of my own points would go something like this:

1) $11 seems really low, relatively speaking, for US-based programming work;
2) ... but, if the client gets a worker at this rate, and is happy enough to keep employing him/her at this rate, than I can shake my head all I want, but in the end, by definition, $11 is in the range of acceptable hourly rates for programming work. (As is $225 an hour!)
3) ... I don't believe that contracting a willing programmer for $11 an hour represents market manipulation. I've heard your points on this, but in the end, I just disagree. Now, if we had evidence that various large companies were working together to drive down prices; or if the government was mandating prices; or if the hourly wage fell below legally mandated minimum wage; then, I'd feel differently.

And finally...

4) Nearly everyone in the US lives too far beyond his/her means. I know one programmer (not VFP) who made $50k in 1992, $300k in 1998, and is now back at $50k. I feel for him, because he may soon lose his house. But, in all honesty, part of me feels that if you immediately up your standard of living to match a sudden rise in income during a boom, you deserve what you are getting on the way down. "Who knew?" he once asked me. "Well, I knew..." I replied. It nearly ended our friendship but he needed to hear it.