And Johnny can't add or spell because he uses a calculator and a spelling checker ...

>If you've got a lot of time to learn a new language, and don't need to produce applications in it, I'd say there is some value to learning things the hard way. However, if you're like me, and need to produce something >now< (that have a ton more functionality), frameworks are a great way to go (and learn).
>
>Just my $.02