Jos,
>Hi Jim
>
>I thought of another angle that's interesting and relevant to this topic and that is the one of expanding one's market. If we protect our own markets and jobs and only buy our own products then one consequence of that will be that poor countries will remain poor. They will not share in the wealth creation possibilities of global trade.

Yes indeed, "wealth creation" and 'a rising tide raises all ships' are the catch-phrases used to justify globalization. The marketing phrases for the activity.
But let's look at the facts...
a) In China the Party officials (including military higher-ups) are indeed living in opulent mansions resulting from payoffs for manufacturing installations. The workers, on the other hand, are barely better of than without the work. They are essentially TOLD to go work at the places.
b) In the pacific islands the workers make a pittance and that is shrunk by payment of room/board. A few owners get rich but the workers don't.
c) Along the Mexican border a special zone was created where companies could manufacture thing in Mexico without tariffs/duties of any kind. Companies flooded the place buildingfactories galore without rgard to environmental factors or working conditions. They paid their workers $2-$5 per day. The idea was to diminish the illegal immigration by Mexicans into the U.S. It hasn't done the job at all. I wonder why?
So lets change the marketing phrases for what it really is... EXPLOITATION of people and destruction of their environments.
Believe me, there are far better ways to expand one's markets!

>
>A tough guy may say "so what?". The problem however is that the industrialized west is always looking for new markets to export their products to. This has two obvious issues; if we dont buy "theirs" then they will (a) not buy ours and (b) not have the money to buy ours. Which in turn affects our economy and affects the world because poor nations have worldwide consequences. So do we want to export our stuff but not import their stuff? ... mmmm :)

Firstly, realize please that the current situation is different than it was when, for instance, the Japanese took over the electronics industry.
It is NO LONGER a question of "buying THEIR goods". The good in question are manufactured THERE to exploit labour/environment but EVERY BIT OF THESE GOODS ARE:
1) made strictly for export (a few stay for the enriched)
2) Made by and for FOREIGN FIRMS. Sure they hide under local names/corporate names, but most a wholly owned and all are wholly CONTROLLED by the foreign company!

>
>PS. These posts are not directed at you per se. Its just that you took the bait - LOL!

< s >.
Well I didn't respond to your first reply because I felt that you really were bent on you rationale being "truth" (it is really the market (us) that decides) and so didn't see what I was driving at. But I'll try now.

Again, that it is us who is the market and so it is us who actually decides is the propaganda that helps to sustain this exploitation. And you are not alone in having 'bought' the argument.

What I was getting at with the Walmart example was that Walmart's customers were decidedly NOT clamouring for cheaper shirts and skirts. Walmart's profits at the time of the change were as strong as ever. It was a unilateral decision by Walmart where the customers had NO SAY. And within roughly 18 months there was no longer a manufacturing base of substance in the U.S. to allow customers to take an alternative.

As regards pension plan invstments, again you missed my point... that pension funds managers do only what's monetarily good and do not at all consider for even one nanosecond what any social impact might be. So, again, the MEMBER HAS NO SAY.

So it is NOT US who make any of the decisions that determine what we CAN BUY. All we can do as consumers is to buy what's available. If there are no shirts or skirts or shorts or running shoes or regular shoes made locally that we can buy then it is no legitimate to conclude that we are voting with our dollars to buy the foreign stuff. When I need a shirt and the only ones available (save from a local specialist who hand-makes for the rich crowd) are Chinese or Taiwanese or Bangladeshi or ?????? then there is NO VOTE REGISTERED BY MY PURCHASE.

Do you see it now?

Jim