>Terry,
>
>It really would be interesting to KNOW what stuff actually has much of itself made in India (or elsewhere for that matter).

I've worked 2 projects parallel to a consulting group that outsourced overseas. There stuff looked like a class room project and was a feast for the hour glass. The end users hated it - but management had spent a lot of money and, though estimated to take six months, they were still trying to perfect it after 18 months. I think prospects know when they talk to someone that can deliver. If they can't find an individual - they will go with quantity, providing the unit man hour is cheap. They probably have a good idea on the odds of success. They have to gambel - I mean - in the words of the late Jim Segal, when asked "What is a consultant?", his reply. "A consultant is someone that tells you they're a consultant." Almost too simple.
>
>There really is no way to tell. For all we know a good percentage of what you named IS 'made' offshore.

Most of the off shore stuff, I bet, is large database maintenance. The foreign sweat shop "software" I've seen is pretty low rent. What they call "commercial grade", many of us would call "hobbyist" grade:-).

>
>And, frankly, if you think that developing fancy software is the WHOLE future of the U.S. then I do think that you're sadly mistaken..

Movies, music that's software too. We're like England in the 70's. What do we manufacture. Most of our industry fabricates foreign assemblies or delivers overnight pouches.

>The U.S. has shown that brain power makes for a great nation. Keep two things in mind:
>1) that fact hasn't gone unnoticed in other countries and several are emulating U.S. eduaction institutes with great success. India has one that rivals MIT.
Don't get me wrong - Most cultures are better educated than the US - sure - the elite have good schooling - but out average citizen is behind the average citizen of most other developed countries. Education is a low national priority - excepting the elite.


>2) All of the politicians, here and in the U.S., rail on about falling educational standards. Things haven't turned around yet and I see no reason to suspect that that will change any time soon.

It's not educational standards, it's the lack of importance parents place on education. It's more about how not to feel bad about yourself than it is to risk an emotional crisis cause you couldn'y keep up in algebra.

>
>The U.S. has approx. 300,000,000 people and not even 10% of them can be gainfully employed writing fancy software.
I write fanct software:-)

>Developer work (i.e. more than just programming) is by no means the first to be moved off shore. Whole factories have disappeared into China or Mexico or Singapore or Bangladesh or India or ...... Soon, all in the name of profit down to the point-of-a-percent, there will be only service jobs left here for all of us.

Program, program, program, or you'll wind up living in a van down by the river. A prospect knows when we believe in ourselves. We believe in ourselves when we understand that ethic and effort can penetrate any and all barriers.

"Fear is the mind killer." ... Paul Maudib

... ooooh, so philisophical :-).

>
>
>
>>My sense is that outsourced work is tedious, mostly data maintenance stuff. Sure it's cheap - but the customer has to do all the leg work - prototype, specifications -,
>>
>>It may be cheaper - but remember - quality or quantity - North America is as famous for software as it it is for movies and music.
>>
>>Has India written and produced a "Quake III", "Matrix" (the first movie), "Turbo Tax" or "FoxPro" or "Foxy Lady" (Jimi, ok-maybe thats a UK thing:-)), or a "UT". No - they mostly do batch maintenance and they make their money off the time it takes to develop the design, specifications and debug.
>>
>>Japan would be the one to worry about - but they're more expensive than US services/
>>
>>As always, you get what you pay for. I, myself, don't want to compete for low end server maintenance or scripting - it's boring.
>>
>>When we start using "Made in India" programming tools - then it will be time for a little self evaluation.
>>
>>RANT OFF
>>
>>>Victor Anderson has just started a thread about yet another U.S. corporation outsourcing IT jobs overseas; Re: OT: Sprint moving application development. Thread #818299 Message #818311
>>>
>>>I had the opportunity to work with foreign programmers during the mid 90’s. In fact, part of my job required telephone interviews with potential candidates in India. This was for early VFP 3 development and I quickly concluded that C++ programmers with OO experience would be much easier to cross train to VFP than taking a Fox 2.6 developer and hand holding them through a steep learning curve.
>>>
>>>The Indian programmers were amongst the fastest, most clever developers I’ve ever encountered. All in all they were a great bunch of people. They were also incredibly cheap, even taking into account all of the middle men (agencies etc.) and the profit their employer was making, the cost of one U.K. developer was equivalent to at least three Indian developers.
>>>
>>>Alas, their first language was not English. Consequently comments and variable, function, procedure names etc. were invariably more difficult to understand. In short, the code could only be maintained by the same developers, a kind of lock-in.
>>>
>>>Sprint is a U.S. corporation with typical globalization desires. Its board of directors is probably primarily English speaking. Its IT specifications and requirements will all be based in English. It is highly likely that the developers will be expected to work from English specifications – how many times do you think they will seek clarification, before they realize that this sends the wrong message. I am confident they will do their best to guess the subtle nuances hidden between the lines. Inevitably there will be misinterpretations, leading to poorer quality, errors in implementation and a general downward spiral.
>>>
>>>In the medium term 12 to 18 months, Sprint may well cut costs. In the longer term, with second-rate quality they will have the additional burden of having to lower customer expectations. Sadly this may not be a significant burden as quality of service appears to be falling everywhere and en-masse we are pretty much expecting less!
>>>
>>>Boycott / Sell Sprint Corp.