While we're talking about frameworks :) , my opinion is that, if possible, it's a good idea to get one of the frameworks and at least use it to get ideas for how to structure an architecture. At least for a newbie, like me. Using MM has definitely helped me get some things up and going quicker than I otherwise would have, but still allows me to learn plenty about .NET. I don't have the Lhotke book (yet), but I imagine that would have helped me similarly. The importance of this to me is that, on my own, I was not making much headway and I always ended up going back to VisualFoxPro when push came to shove and I had to get the product out the door. Others are more willing/able to push themselves up the learning curve by exploring on their own and/or reading everything in sight so maybe the framework wouldn't be as important a tool in their quest.

I definitely agree with the idea that NOT using a framework, at least initially, forces you to get digging into .NET even more and learning about things that the frameworks handle behind the scenes for you. That's (digging deeper and learning) definitely a good thing. OTOH (and I'm still at the bottom of the learning curve, so maybe it's premature for me to say this), it seems to me that MM provides me a nice structure that I can also steer clear of anytime I want. IOW, it doesn't seem to me as if I'm really locked into using only MM types, as I was to a much greater extent when using VFP frameworks. Either way, once you've become a pro with the tool, a framework is a must IMO, whether store-bought or home-made.

Again, just my opinion. I've just gotten some of the A!Press books myself and need to hunker down and do some serious reading, but I'm still glad that I have MM to help me be more productive while I'm learning. And, as I see things in those books that I want to try, so far I haven't seen anything in MM that will prevent me from adding in those techniques as I learn them. I guess the key for me is to not get lulled into relying on the framework to the point I don't really learn .NET.

Kelly