I don't think that the average web page compares well with the average form. Scroll bars are a good way to navigate text, which is mainly what you find on pages, including the ones in the "iarchitect.com" site. Also, though I don't know much about it, I think that one long page loads faster than two shorter ones, in the painfully slow web-and-modem environment. Switching pages in a pageframe or forms in a formset shouldn't take so much time.

>Not all forms are pure data entry forms:
>
>Several appropriate uses of scrolling forms:
> Word Processor
> Paint or graphics Program
> Daily Schedule
>
>Scroll Bars are a *standard* property for a Windows window object
>and should be available for use when appropriate.
>
>-Marty Kay
>
>>Thanks for taking the trouble, David. I appreciated it greatly!
>>
>>Those are legitimate arguments, but some *also* apply to PageFrames (like require more user input, can hide navigation, etc).
>>
>>One app I couldn't deliver was a legal-sized, 4-page auto insurance applicartion form. The user insisted (and I had to agree) that an exact replica of the form was required. Really only about a screen and a half per page.
>>Would have been easy to do, with virtually none of the (added) penalties mentioned, had a scrollable feature been available. But it wasn't so I didn't.
>>
>>Interesting, too, that the very site with the argument itself uses scrollable form to display that information. Seems to say that there *are* uses for scrollable forms, eh?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Jim N
>>
>> >Jim,
>>>
>>>Sorry, that site is framed and the URL didn't reflect the page I was on... It was at the bottom of the "Selecting the wrong control" page.
>>>
>>>Pulling this from their website http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm:
>>>
>>>"Scrollable forms are a sure sign of inexperience in graphical user interface design. These often result from the conversion of legacy applications to the Windows platform, or in the development of applications based on paper forms. Scrolling forms hide important information from the user, hide navigational aids and controls, and require more user inputs to get to the desired information.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, visit any programming support forum, and you'll see an ever-increasing number of new programmers asking how to create scrollable forms. The only appropriate answer is, "You don't."
>>>
>>>Here's the sample form they used http://www.iarchitect.com/images/scroll.gif
>>>
>>>I don't purport to be a UI design expert, but I've done a lot with clients to get useable screen designs of "paper apps" we've always been able to avoid scrollable forms. But just as easy to misuse pageframes as it would be to misuse scrollable forms.
>>>
>>>It's kind of like the dualing scrollbars presented here in this reply window under IE4 even with my video system running at 1280x1024 this editbox has a scrollbar AND the browser window has a scrollbar and it's a real annoyance at times.
>>>
>>>>I went to the site you noted yesterday, but never did encounter the reference you cited. I did *not* examine everything (didn't have time) but did read all of the basic one which came up.
>>>>
>>>>Nevertheless, you and me may well be used to PageFrames, but some users simply want their screen forms to look EXACTLY like their paper forms. PageFrames can never meet this requirement, not should we have to "show them the light" so to speak (because all we are really trying to do is rationalize our inability to deliver what they want).
>>>>
>>>>In addition, as came through clearly in what I *did* read at that site, it is a lot easier to make UI errors using PageFrames than it is to do do using scrollable page, especially if that page is a replica of a paper page in the first place.
>>>>
>>>>In summary, Tahoe does the right thing by making scrollable forms available. That way, all can be satisfied.