John,

>>And what to think about this (from the dutch news): Since the last elections, the electronic voting systems are going to be used more in the US. Currently only three manufacturers have been granted a licence to manufacture the voting machine. Appart from the fact that testing these machine went very bad (Crashing), the software of one of those machines leaked to the internet, showing terrible source code. Even worse is that the director of one of those companies publically has announce to support bush.
>>
>>I know I'm going to raise hairs here. But I really see some silularities in some people from the 20th century that won elections this kind of way, and were responsible for millions of death.
>>
>>I'm beginning to realize that the actual state is that you live in a dictatorship disguised as democracy. How could it have come this far ?
>>
>>< Wait let me get my firesuit on ... >

>And you would do well to get two suits. So our country isn't perfect. Does your country have the problem of people trying to break in to the country?

Ehhh, this is shifting the argument here. I was not talking about people trying to get into our country. But to answer the question: Of course we do, just as any well developped western country. However I fail to see where this fits into the current discussion.

>I'll take our country over any other in the world, France would be at the bottom of my list.

That's probably you are born within it and don't know much about the world outside of it.

>As for your Utopia, what has your country ever done anyway?
>What is significant about the Netherlands, other than using more than your share of consonants?

You'd better learn your history, before reacting in anger. The dutch with the VOC ruled the world in the 17th century and was the most richest country in the world for about 80 years. We rulled the west and east indies and part of the US as well. The dutch were the first ones that trade with the japanese and held an exclusive license a long time. New york was called "New Amsterdam" until we traded it for Suriname (big mistake). Ever heard of Van gogh, Rembrandt, Peter stuyvesant, Abel Tasman (Tasmania). Wonder who discovered australia and where the name "New zealand" comes from. Ever wondered where the language afrikaans (south afrika) is derived from?

To be less proud of: Who is responsible for the first slave trades between afrika and america? Who did start a war in the 50s against the freedom fighters in indonesia (yes we have had our vietnam too)

You might not know, but the dutch still have a powerfull financial stronghold in manhattan. ING, ABN-AMRO, PHILIPS, SHELL, AH, HEINIKEN are examples of big multinationals having lots of business in your own country (which might be explioted under other names: e.g. philips was know under the name magnalux). Ever since WWII there still move lots of dutch to canada and the US (Canada seems to be favourate however), forming whole towns.

You ever wondered where the surnames like vander..., van.., de.., vanden.. come frome? As I have been told about 20% of all american have dutch blood.

Look, Holland is a small country, only 16 million citizens. Clearly no match agains one that is more than 200 times as big and has about 20 times more citizens. But if you want to say that holland is/was insignificant in worlds history, you're plain wrong. More severe, since the dutch played a significant role in the american history as well, it is shocking you don't know the history of your own country. < S >

Walter,