Tracy,

we will end up in misunderstandings. ::)

I coud not belive the homeless of your country have access to a fridge.
If you compare the living standard then I must (not willingly) agree. The most people I know would think that way, and I'm not free of it.

With the the democratic country.
My point was that if one will read it that way, one could. And it's truth in it. (And if you ask me I'm happy that it was that democratic).


By the planes the inprison a lot of people:
Do you think the US has no plans what to do in case of? It's the duty of security forces to have things like that.
I know people from west germany that where realy asked to do espionage on a sight seeing trip trough East Berlin. How should I tell you? Somehow the secret service of your country doing the same ... My feeling is that every country has the right to self defense. The paranoia on the MFS (Stasi is a nickname) was high those days and you was the enemy. Have you ever seen the sheet of paper one have to fill entering the US as non citizen? It's the same paranoia.

That does not excuse anything done by the secrete service of our land. But let me say the reasons the patriot act was introduced for remembers me a lot on the reasons for the activity of the MFS.
You may now legaly filed by doing nothing more then lending a book from a library. You have neighbourhoud watches that remembers a lot of a "Blockwart", somebody in charge to control his neighbourhoud. This was an idea of the nazis to control the people. We see that with a very bad feeling.

We in easter germany have see the biggest destruction of industrial power the the 30 year war in the middle age. 70% af industrial capacity is destroyed. Everybody that is free of going moves to the west what leaks most of the well educated young people.

Please do not misunderstand "nationalist". That what an average american do or feel against it's nation will be called "nationalist" in german terms. For example nobody with a sane mind would show a german flag. At no time. It's one of our big problems (mising patriotic feeling) if you ask me.

In east germany there was a more patriotic feeling then in west germany, so this could be misunderstoud.
The nazis (neo or not, smae kind) are a big problem know, but as you now it's more important to fight the post communist so we will have to life with the nazis for a while.

Yes, our wellfare system is crippled, but if goes on with that speed we need several then years to meet american standard. ::)

Have a nice day, I need to have a nap.

Agnes
>I'm sorry if you misunderstood. My comparison was not on true poverty at all but a misconception of what poverty is. I am basically stating that there is no comparison. There are some folks truly living in poverty in Latin America and not even during the depression did Americans live under conditions like they do now. I then mentioned how even in America those living in 'poverty' conditions have color television, radios, vcrs, refrigerators, and air conditioning, gold jewelry, new cars, new clothes etc. The only other place I personally saw where this was not the case was NOT those living in poverty in Europe or America, but the average citizen in East Berlin when I was there. According to socialist doctrine, poverty did not exist in East Germany at the time, but what I saw was much different. The average citizen in East Berlin lived comfortably, yes, but they did not enjoy the many appliances that the typical American (even those living in poverty) have. Of course, that was
>back in the 80s when the GDR still existed...
>
>I disagree that the GDR is the only true democratic country ever. That is an outrageous statement given world history and history of the GDR. Don't get me wrong, I think the toppling of the Berlin Wall is the greatest demonstration of democracy in work in history, however, that single event does not make the GDR the only true democratic country ever. There is more to being a democracy. It would be nice if that one event could wipe out history, but it cannot. The wall separated husbands and wives and parents from children. I personally stood with the marksman's rifle pointed at me at Checkpoint Charlie and 'enjoyed' being followed every place I went in East Berlin. My great uncle's apartment was searched for contraband the day I left. He was questioned for 10 hours. I witnessed the death of teenagers attempting to escape. You live there so this is all old news to you. Can you honestly say that the old Stasi headquarters doesn't exist and the crimes of the police state never
>ocurred? The Stasi kept files on over 6 million citizens. Is the story that the Stasi planned to send more than one hundred thousand people to internment camps false? That was in the Stasi files. While nothing pleased me more than to see that wall come down it is not the only true democratic country in the world today or at the time. There is still unemployment and long term poverty in what used to be East Germany. There is a wall of inequity growing in what used to be East Germany. The unemployment rate was 7.6 in West Germany and 17.7% in East Germany. Has that changed? I understand that it has even led to a resurgence of nationalist and neofascist sentiments. It seems that either a social market economy is slow to emerge there or perhaps the people have not adjusted their thinking after a lifetime of socialism ,or democracy is not as good for the poor. I believe that Germany made changes in August 2003 that reduced many of its benefits in social welfare, health insurance,
>and unemployment compensation.
>
>Tracy
>
>
>
>>Tracy,
>>
>>beg your pardon, but how do you come to the idea people in the former GDR (know to you as east germany) was as poor as somebody in latin america?
>>I myself never visited latin america, but you agree that the poor in the US stands better then those in the south.
>>
>>If you would have offered a "poor" (i.e not the average) citizen of the GDR the whole living conditions of a mobil home or in a "no go zone", he would have rejected. And there was no homeless, and if, you wouldn't have seen.
>>
>>BTW, the GDR was the only real democratic country ever. As the people like to change the system, administration withdraw from power after some demonstrations without a single shot. Try this in a country of the "free world".
>>::)
>>
>>Agnes
>>
>>>Yes I have been to poor 3rd world countries. I suggest you visit some more because I know from personal experience that your image of 3rd world poverty is not realistic. I lived in Panama for a year and spent a lot of time in other latin american countries. Not all living in poverty in 3rd world countries have refrigerators and electricity. If they did they would sell them for food. Look at Panama. I personally visited many living in real poverty there and they have four walls and a roof but a dirt floor, no electricity, and no fridge, ice, or radio, let alone color t.v. Medical care is only a dream to most of them. Their health was scary from lack of nutrition on a regular basis as well as bacterial infections and infections from bug bites. Some did not even have shoes. That goes for Nicaragua, Costa Rica, El Salvador, and Honduras. Believe me the living conditions of the poor in those countries were NOTHING compared to the poor I saw living in the U.S., West Germany,
>>>Spain, France, Switzerland, Netherlands (I was in Den Haag in 1984 and then I drove around the country for 2 weeks), or Denmark. The closest to the Latin American countries' poorest conditions was East Berlin but even there everyone had a roof over their head, heat (albeit coal), t.v., a radio, a refrigerator, a stove, adequate (if ugly) clothing, and most of them even a vehicle. No comparison at all....