Charles,

a bad try doesn't mean one couldn't do better. ::)
I do not belive in things you belive but I would like to end here because this is not the right place to go into deep, as well I do not like flesh eating programms.

Agnes
>Like most leftist college students in the 60s I read Marx and Hegel. Theory aside, from 1924 - and probably before - the Russian revolution was co-opted by a gang of thugs that committed some of the greatest atrocities in human history. Stalin was a monster, by any rational standard. The GDR was a police state that only could exist because of the Stasi. The wall was not built to keep oppressed workers in the west from fleeing to the workers' paradise.
>
>The ills of capitalism are well-documented. But the state controlled totalitarian evil of the regimes of the Soviet Union and the even more ideologic ( if perhaps less corrupt ) GDR are measured in the millions who died in the gulags and in the no-man's land shot down by border guards, or of the starvation of kulaks and Chinese peasants to please the egos of the central planners.
>
>1989 compares only with 1945 as one of the greatest years in human history.
>
>I will certainly agree there has been no serious attempt at true socialism on the Marxist model. I believe Marx would have expected the proletarian revolution in England or Germany rather than Russia.
>
>But the problems with imposing the redistribution of wealth at this point are that it implies a centralized control and it requires force. I don't think we are likely to see it happen in a large way in developed societies as there is no reason to believe that it would increase the level of human happiness to a degree that would offset the repression of individual freedom. And we have seen that state planners don't run economies more efficiently or more equitably than greedy capitalists. <s>
>
>I think we would just be better working for social justice by convincing all that certain policies are in everyone's interest. ( I think the arguements for equal opportunity, universal health care, public education and a social safety net are compelling from an enlightened capitalist perspective - of course I wish I could convince my capitalist friends of that <g> )
>
>>Charles,
>>
>>1. There was no communist state the it was called socialistic. There is a differnce.
>>2. Don't mix up Marx with socialist countries to much. Do you have ever read the Communist Manifest or the Capital? Marx described capitalismn, and that is not changed at all.
>>3. Belive it or not, it has worked for a long time without guns.
>>4. The idea to be a marxist might have nothing to do with socialist countries. It's the same as if you would think all moslem people act like terrorists.
>>
>>Have a nice day
>>
>>
>>Agnes
>>>>
>>>>You don't care about facts do ya? There are still about 1.x Billion communist left in this world. That is about 4 times as the whole north american population. Not that I'm a communist. Not at all, but thinking that communism has been defeated is typpically a statement from an american who does not have a clue what he is talking about.
>>>
>>>Walter, you really should stick to technical areas where you have some expertise and credibility. I am not defending a nationalist or jingoistic position but this is just silly. There are three "communist" regimes extant - North Korea, which is an entity so bizarre at to defy catogorization but is as much a cult of personality as an ideology, Cuba, which is proving the failure of the model and maintains a system that will not survive Castro, and China, the most capitalist culture ever to embrace a collectivist ideology.
>>>
>>>If you count the entire population of China as "communists" you may be able to crank your number up to the 1.x billion, but if you seriously believe China is a communist country you understand little of communism or China.
>>>
>>>The communist model has never survived except at gunpoint.
>>>
>>>Totalitarian states are outside the realm of economic models. The rapid collapse of the Soviet Union was proof positive the 'ideology' was a facade for a corrupt, oligarchic and failed central authority.
>>>
>>>In the mid 20th century academics were supposed to take Marxist dialectic seriously. Now it is relegated to the extremely rarified atmosphere of the aging but tenured who can't let go of ideology in the face of reality. It failed and was rejected most strongly by those who saw it up close.
>>>
>>>The major lesson of the 20th century is that human nature ultimately rejects totalitarianism and given a choice will embrace the uncertainty of freedom.