>Dragan,
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>>>The decline of some societies doesn't necessarily mean their morality was wrong - it may just not have been strong enough, didn't take real root.
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>Whatever the reason: it would take a brave/arrogant leader to forge a new morality in the face of the failures of the 20th Century. Established religions have stood the test of time, just like democracy. Sure they have faults and warts, but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We know these moral structures lead to stable communities. If we agree that is good, we need more than just a smug "I'm very sure of myself" to justify departures from the tried and true.
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>Right here on UT we see people who advocate that we are intrinsically good. to reach such a belief requires a pleasant upbringing and a sheltered adult life.
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>Which is actually great news, if our societies are able to support communities who can live that belief. We are succeeding.

Hi John.

In my opinion, the argument of whether children are inherently good or bad is pointless. You argue that children behave cruelly in a playground, for instance, and hence are bad by nature, need to be taught right and wrong, good and bad. However, children cannot survive after birth without being cared for. Hence they are influenced by their caretakers from day one. Therefore you do not know whether the behaviour you see in chldren is their inherent, natural, behaviour or whether it is a learnt behaviour from the caregivers, or a combination of the two.

Personally I believe very young children are inherently good. There is no malicous ego in their actions even when such actions may cause another child harm. A little older, say around 4 or 5, children start to develop an ego. They may at this stage on occasion be "cruel" to other children on purpose, tease them and the like. However I again do not believe this is evil or "bad" but rather the normal behaviour of all animals in learning the rules of society, of pushing the boundaries, of testing the limits, finding the pecking order, etc. This is all normal behaviour.

I think if one believes that children are inherently bad then we are in a pretty poor state of affairs. Do they need to learn the rules of society? Sure, and different societies have different rules. But this is not a debate of whether they are inherently good or bad.

I think Dragan is correct. Morals and moral behaviour come from what the society is accepting and desiring and teaching. There are some "morals", like not murdering, that simply make sense in any society in order to maintain some level of harmony. We cannot all go around killing each other as it is detrimental to the society at large.

One does not need religion in order to have a moral society per se.