>Regardless, the label is still used as an ever-ready means of discounting anything thats contradictory to the 'labellers' pov.

So you disregard my argument and say yours is right. How is that a substantial counterpoint?

>And i cant agree with your 'want to lose' charge. A large group of critics say we cant leave now while others do say bring them home now. But that doesnt translate to 'want to lose'.

On this point we disagree. Leaving Iraq immediately would be a US defeat. Arguing about why we should pull out immediately untimately comes back to a US defeat. The critics calling for immediate withdrawl know this and many would benefit as a result.

>The charge makes a great strawman to be knocked around, but it misses the point. There's a perceive futility due to lack of progress, administration claims that repeatedly have proven to be incorrect, the deaths and causualties, the money spent, the hopeful establishment of what appears to be an Iran-friendly government, an insurgency (according to General Casey) fueled by "the perception of occupation in Iraq", a cant stay - cant leave environment, pre-war intelligence claims, ...

This is where the crux of the argument lies. perceive futility Too often perception is reality. The prevailing perception of Iraq is a war zone where car bombs and IEDs are going off constantly. In reality these incidents are taking place in less than 5% of the country (conviently where the world's media are holed up). The progress throughout the country is either underreported, ignored or called lies. There has been tremendous progress in Iraq in the last 2 years. Not the least of which are the 3 elections and the formation of a democratic government.

We stand on the precipice of history. This war has a chance to succede if we stay the course, whereas, most agree that only ruin would come from our retreat. Now is the time to remain steadfast and see it through. I believe that the most vocal critics, who are getting even more vocal, also realize this. They can see that a democratic Iraq, might just work, and it scares them for their own selfish reasons.

I have said it before. I choose to remain optimistic about the future of Iraq and the region as a whole. The more freedom on the planet, the better the world becomes.

>
>
>>"Liberal" is not a blanket label. It has been applied to very left leaning politicians, actors and activists. The same as "conservative" is applied to the far-right. The anti-US label has been applied to a couple of individuals who demonstrate an abhorence for the American way of life.
>>
>>Some critics of the war desperately want the US to lose. It's to their benefit either politically (Dean) or financially (Kos) or both. To suggest that this thinking is "beyond the pale" is to ignore the calls to remove the troops immediately. This would clearly be a US defeat.
>>
>>Some critics have managed to be critical without these labels. John McCain, Joe Lieberman and Colin Powell come to mind. The reason is because historically in their words and actions they have not portrayed themselves to be far-left, anti-American or unpatriotic.
>>
>>>I think he's quite correct in his statement that war critics are labeled as "liberals" as a means of discounting their opinion. Happens all the time. David Stevenson's diatribe 2 days ago attests to that. Not only are they labeled "liberals", they are labeled as "unpatriotic", and in David's mind (and by others), the Bush/war critics "want the US to lose", which is beyond the pale.
>>>
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>>>>I was not attacking Mike Farrell or the documentary. In fact I think it is a very important aspect that should be shown.
>>>>
>>>>My point was directed at Thomas' comments. He has put forth the idea that all critics of the war are labeled as "liberals" and are somehow discounted. He is suggesting that the message is ignored. I'm simply pointing out that the critic is fair game as well as the message.
>>>>
>>>>>Well, the show is a documentary. And the army sanctioned it. And the army's surgeon general wrote a memo warning that watching it could cause PTSD. So is your problem with Mike Farrel? Or just that people can now see whats going on in a US Baghdad hospital?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Never consider the source for any message, simply take it as fact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Aliens crashed at Roswell in '48 and the goverment has been covering it up since.
>>>>>>-JFK was killed by a massive set of conspirators from Castro to the Mob to the Smoking Man. Only Mister X knows the truth.
>>>>>>-"I am not a crook"
>>>>>>-"I did not have sexual relations with that woman..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Perry;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is just a ploy on the part of that super liberal Hollywood Actor. The Army's chief surgeon, Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, sent out a memo to Army post-medical staff across the country regarding viewing "Baghdad ER".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The worry is that the graphic content may trigger flashbacks and nightmares for those troops coping with PTSD. Obvisouly that General is a liberal and does not know what he is talking about! It is a known fact that PTSD does not exist! Those caliming such a disorder are lily livered cowards!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So just rack all this up to a liberal who has no idea what he is talking about. No liberal should be allowed to express an opinion. Real Americans want war, blood and guts. Just do not show it on television when there are perfectly good sporting events to view and enjoy, along with all the beer you can drink. Now if you are a real American you will enlist and ask to have a tour in Iraq!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You know it only took me ten years after I was discharged from the Air Force, to sleep without waking up in a cold sweat and terrible dreams. That is just one of the benefits of being a Vietnam vet!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Don’t you love the comments you receive when you post something like this? There is such compassion and understanding by a few. :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>I saw "Baghdad ER" on HBO last night (Sunday, May 21). I'd heard that the Defense Dept. had issued warnings urging servicemen and women back from Iraq to be wary of watching as it might trigger PTSD symptoms. Perhaps they hoped those about to go wouldn't watch as well, for fear they might not show up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Baghdad ER" is a documentary about a "CASH," a Combat Support Hospital in Baghdad. I recommend it for every American, but the queasy be warned: it is excruciating. I cringed at the gore, was sickened by the death, wept at the frustration and resignation of the medics, at the faith of the chaplain, at the simple, shocked, blank expressions on the faces of kids younger than my son – victims of this fool's war. Listening to the bravado of some, aching to comfort those who came in knowing they were hurt but not how badly, made me want to scream. Watching this horrifying, endless process, the tears on my face kept drying from the heat of my anger. Glorious, generous, talented, dedicated human beings forced to be part of this circus of carnage made me so furious I couldn't speak at the end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I loathe the people who have created this monstrosity. I want the criminals who lied and cheated and pretended and twisted and perverted reality - and those who rationalized their crimes - so they could send over 2400 servicemen and woman to their death, nearly 18,000 to come home torn - some never to be whole again - thousands more to suffer mental damage, and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians to be swept into the garbage can of "collateral damage," to pay. These bastards and their apologists should be stripped naked and forced to walk the main streets of America, allowing every city and town that has lost a loved one to injury or death in this shameful catastrophe to heap on them the scorn they deserve.