>>Regardless, the label is still used as an ever-ready means of discounting anything thats contradictory to the 'labellers' pov.
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>So you disregard my argument and say yours is right. How is that a substantial counterpoint?

My point is that it happens all the time. It happens here almost daily. It happened in this thread. Mike Farrell is a liberal... so disregard him.

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>>And i cant agree with your 'want to lose' charge. A large group of critics say we cant leave now while others do say bring them home now. But that doesnt translate to 'want to lose'.
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>On this point we disagree. Leaving Iraq immediately would be a US defeat. Arguing about why we should pull out immediately untimately comes back to a US defeat. The critics calling for immediate withdrawl know this and many would benefit as a result.
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>>The charge makes a great strawman to be knocked around, but it misses the point. There's a perceive futility due to lack of progress, administration claims that repeatedly have proven to be incorrect, the deaths and causualties, the money spent, the hopeful establishment of what appears to be an Iran-friendly government, an insurgency (according to General Casey) fueled by "the perception of occupation in Iraq", a cant stay - cant leave environment, pre-war intelligence claims, ...
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>This is where the crux of the argument lies. perceive futility Too often perception is reality. The prevailing perception of Iraq is a war zone where car bombs and IEDs are going off constantly. In reality these incidents are taking place in less than 5% of the country (conviently where the world's media are holed up). The progress throughout the country is either underreported, ignored or called lies. There has been tremendous progress in Iraq in the last 2 years. Not the least of which are the 3 elections and the formation of a democratic government.

Still, "wanting to lose" is a cheap strawman. There are lots of critic camps. The leave now-ers, the stay-ers, more troop-ers, less troop-ers, UN-ers, Iranian help-ers, the review of the pre-war intel-ers, and so on. "Wanting to lose" is hoisted on the admin critics in an effort to discount them.

The milestone turning appears to have little impact. Whats interesting is now, other than to appoint 2 or 3 people to various departments in the new government, i'm not aware of any more Iraqi political milestones down the road that we can target as a new turning point. Although, we have some upcoming elections here that may make our politicians do something regarding troop levels. Here are a few prior milestones that have come and gone:

April 9, 2003: President Bush praised the toppling of the Saddam statue in Baghdad as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The removal of the brutal dictator will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

July 22, 2003: President Bush praised the deaths of Uday and Qusay Hussein in a gun battle as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The killing of these two brutal and sadistic Baathists will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

December 14, 2003: President Bush praised the capture of Saddam Hussein in Tikrit as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The taking into custody of the deposed Iraqi dictator will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

May 5, 2004: President Bush praised the bringing to justice of the "few bad apples" in Abu Ghraib prison as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Showing the Iraqis that we understand the rule of law and that we punish our torturers will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

June 28, 2004: President Bush praised the transfer of sovereignty from the Coalition Provisional authority to an interim government as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Giving Iraqis a say in their own affairs of state will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

September 23, 2004: President Bush praised the poll showing the right track/wrong track numbers in Iraq were higher than in the US as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Scientific evidence that ordinary Iraqis feel more stable and secure than ordinary Americans will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

November 9, 2004: President Bush praised the successful siege of Fallujah as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Defeating terrorists and dead-enders in the insurgent stronghold will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

January 30, 2005: President Bush praised the election of a Transitional National Assembly as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. 8.5 million citizens braving terrorist strikes to vote will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

May 30, 2005: President Bush praised his Vice President's statement that the insurgency is in its last throes as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Vice President Cheney's avowal that the insurgency is almost over will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

October 15, 2005: President Bush praised the ratification of the draft constitution as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The installment of a permanent founding document of government and law will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

December 15, 2005: President Bush praised the election of a permanent National Assembly as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The vote for a permanent government of national unity for the next four years will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

February 27, 2006: President Bush praised the slight reduction in sectarian violence as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. Stepping back from the abyss of civil war between Sunnis and Shi'a will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

April 21, 2006: President Bush praised the selection of Nouri al-Maliki as the new Prime Minister as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The choice of the experienced political operator and member of the conservative Shiite Dawa Party will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."

May 22, 2006: President Bush praised the formation of a national unity government as a "milestone" for the country of Iraq. The compromise of Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish parties to put together a working body (save for three important ministry posts) will bring "a new day for the Iraqi people." The President cautioned that there "are many challenges ahead," however, and that any talk of withdrawal is "premature."