Dan,

>>Lets see your logic. You don't need to say anything constructive and when I chime in to disagree with you I need to be constructive instead of destructive. I can't follow your logic here.
>
>How is your opinion on the amount of scandals in the US and your slurs against Republicans constructive?

Well, just as constructive as your slur against liberals.

>>Wrong! WHAT YOU AND I THINK IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT outside of a discussion. It is what the public thinks. Only they can make a difference (election)
>
>That I would agree with.

Great we agree on this point.

>>Thanks for the list. It just proves the point.
>
>Hardly, since it only takes into account national-level politics.

Isn't that worse enough?

>>Sure, did I say otherwise?? BTW, the abrhramov scandal is big enough IMO. Let alone the doubtfull actions made by your government in regards to Iraq.

>We're talking about documented scandals, not your opinions about the war.

The abrhamov scandal is documented. The whole iraq thing is so senstive it won't be documented before the next (democrat) president is elected.

>>Then don't listen. It is you who bites, you can't blame me: They are my observations and my opinions and last time I looked there was still freedom of speech in both holland and canada, so please don't complain, I reply to your statements that strike me as naive.
>
>You make 'em, I'm going to fight 'em. You think you have some duty to correct us "naive Americans". That's fine, I'm going to keep coming back here to prove that you are wrong, because I think you are arrogant, insulting, and very often wrong.

Arrogant? yes, insulting? not intentional, wrong? nope I'm never wrong :)


>That's just it - very little of what you say is "truth". You say that word with a capital "T" but in reality there is no such thing as "Truth". I fight you because I enjoy the fight, and you continue to bring your ill-informed slander out into the open.

Hmmm, I guess we are much alike.

>Personally I would much rather have a reasoned discussion centering around facts and our opinions of them, but since you keep bringing these "truths" into the ring, I'm going to continue to do my Tasmanian Devil impersonation.

Then would it not be a start to talk about facts? You started this threat by making a slant against the link provided by the poster. Your reaction was not based on facts.

>>Ah a confession. You realize the mess. That is a first step. Why denying everything that comes as negative to the republican party? Remember I was not the one posting that message, it was one of your own country who by the way seems to fall into the category you outline above.

>Again, misinterpretation. I have been a political animal since I can remember, and have read and railed against corruption for more years than I suspect you've been on this planet.

SET RANT ON

Probably, because though corruption also is happening in europe, it is on a much lower scale than up here. The point which gets me irritated is that the US is pretending to be the superpower and ruler of the world, and is the one that wants to force democracy down everyone's throat (I don't think there is much to deny here), but clearly shows the downside of "US democracy":

- Most violent society in western countries.
- Most corruption in politics of western countries
- Least interested in environmental issues of western countries.
- Least interested in human rights of western countries
- Least interested in international agreements of western countries.
- Worst healthcare coverage of western countries

I agree, I don't have the facts to back all of this up (right now), but it won't be far from the truth. At least this is the picture drawn in europe and a lot of other countries in the world. It is like the strong muscled man with the least brain/sense of ethics of his class (western countries) convincing others of einsteins relativity theory. It is not very credible. In fact it is very himuliating. Now lets say that people in the US know about their problems, isn't it then NAIVE to pretent the best country in the world that has to be taken as an example for democracy?

A lot of arabic countries already have expressed: If this is democracy, then please no thanks..

SET RANT OFF


>As regards Perry's post, it wasn't an issue of Republican vs. Democrat (although he likes to play that card a lot too). It was a worthless piece of campaign rhetoric, having no value as an illustration of Republicans deserting the party - which it seemed to be presented as.

The link WAS a rant against the republican party comming from a republican. Though you can dismiss the value of it. It at least has some value.


>>Challenge? It more seems like outright debunk anything that even smells like liberal. It seems like blind hate.
>
>Wrong again. There's no blind hate on my part, I just think a lot of liberal positions are wrong, and I'm willing to go to the matt about them. For the record, there's a lot of conservative positions that I think are wrong too.

OK, lets be contructive then. Lets draw a top 10 list of positions you do'nt like of liberals.

>>It indeed is my collection of observations and opinions. But you'll find that a lot in europe. I'm giving you a chance to understand how a lot of europeans look against america.

>Oh, boy. I'm so honored.

You're welcome :)

>See my post above about "truths" again. It's all fine and good if you want to tell people how you think (which may or may not be representative of Europe), but you are one European amongst millions. Yet you position your observations and opinions as fact, as being in the majority, as unassailable "truths" that us poor, ignorant Americans should just accept. Well, carp. I dont' buy it.

Sure not, since I'm the only one european talking about this subject on this forum (at least with this intensity) no-one should draw a conclusion on anything I say directly. However I can point to certain viewpoints that play a role here, which american don't consider at all. Because lets face it. I'm living in a very crowded part of europe. By car, in a few hours I can be in 5 different countries, with different languages, different culture, different politics. Europe is much more diverse than the US. I'm 'arrogant' enough to think that I know more about the diversity of politics, cultures, religions than most people in the US do. That is explainable as the US is such a big country, people don't need to know much of anything outside of the US. In europe it is a neccesity to think out of your own box: You'll have to. People have to realize it is not only about their country. It is about europe. A very complex europe, with lots of different cultures, religions, politics etc.

So if you see that the european countries are:

- Trying to keep balance budgets, and the US is not
- Find quality of life more important than the almighty buck, and the US does not.
- Attach enourmous value on 'Human rights' and 'Independed press', and the US does less so
- Attach value to environmental issue and the US less so

You'll see there is a tremendous difference between US (Canada is somewhere in between) and european countries. Then of course there is the problem is different ethnicities up here.

We have some problems with the integration of certain ethnic groups. More than in the US (integrate or won't have anything to eat), those groups choose to keep their own culture, and refuse to integrate into the dutch society. In the past the dutch government did not do anything about that (multi cultural society), but since we recognized that this lead to some serious problems (e.g. people were not able to find work because they did not speak the language), the dutch government started to do something about it. We'll be suffering from the consequences for a few more decades. However we have learned a lot about how those people think, how they live, what their culture is. It has given us a better understanding of every day life in other parts of the world (e.g arabic countries).

Again, I'm trying to illustrate that we 'europeans' might have a different understanding of the world than the 'americans'.

Walter,