I assure you I was not offended by what you wrote. It would seem we agree more than we disagree.

I do think you may have a somewhat distorted version of life in the US but that is understandable considering media/Hollywood treatment. Remember this is a very big place with a very diverse population. Most of the things that are true of any humans are true in some part of the US. The most remarkable thing, for me, is that it works as well as it does. The level of social mobility is still amazing. But of course freedom implies the freedom to fail as well as to succeed. Look at the game you call football and we call soccer. A great team will score one or two more points than a bad team. Here it is more like basketball, where a great team can score 50 more points than a bad team <g>

And one of the greatest things about Western democracies is that citizens have the right to be indifferent and to ignore or mock those in power <s>.

I also agree about exporting Democracy, but perhaps for different reasons. The political system we enjoy is the product of a long history and an evolving body of law and custom. I don't think you can export that, but can only export the seed of ideas that may someday grow into that. I don't believe this will be successful in Iraq or in any other part of the Middle East as the historical underpinnings are not there.

But I also do not believe imposing Sharia on a society that has had a taste of freedom of thought can be any more successful than imposing Western ideas on a society with no cultural or historical background in that direction. ( I think one of the biggest advantages of for Khomeni's followers in 1979 was that there was very little true freedom of thought under the Shah, so at least that part didn't change. )

My biggest problem with societies that are based on a 'big idea' and wish to control all aspects of an individual's existance from the center - Iran, the old USSR, Nazi Germany, North Korea, Iran, Spain in the 16th century etc - is that they limit freedom of conscience and expression and do not permit humans to make their own choices - even bad ones. Freedom can be very frightening, but the lack of freedom is much worse.

I have no problem with Iran being an Islamic republic ( though I am sure I would if I were Iranian ) but I fear for Turkey, a country very dear to me, as I am a Kemalist and admire Turkey's unique history and culture. Wahhabi money is threatening that society and I would be very sorry to see Turkey become a battleground for the struggle to define the dar al-harb and the dar al-Islam.

I would not be surprised to see very big upheavals in Syria and Egypt. Mubarek and the Ba'athists are certainly the next big target for the Brotherhood. I do not see a smooth resolution of this and I don't believe there is much the West can do about it. That will primarily be a concern for Egyptians and Syrians.

But Pakistan? That's going to be a very very serious problem. I think our willingness to let other countries do what they like ends when they have nuclear weapons that can be sold, stolen, used or given to others.
>
>Don't get me wrong eighter. My stomach turns upside down when I hear
>or read stories (like this one) about things which happen in some Islamic countries, even more when radical clerics have absolute power, like they do in Iran or as they had in in Afganistan. But as Aganistan and Iraq teached us hopefully, that problem simply cannot be solved as those neocon 'thick tanks' sketched it.
>
>Just like you cannot solve bad marriage/couple in your building, being drunk/stoned and hurting their chilldren - by beating couple to death.
>As you very well know, it was long process putting legislation in place
>that can effectively deal with that. (Social workers, foster homes etc)
>(And even with this still happens)

I think this is a very good point.

>Simillarly, imho it is only (long) Global proccess in this case that can
>actually improve things. Lots of positive diplomacy (no threats!), Cross-culture exchanges, ecconomic incentives etc; folowed by gradually implementing Global bodies and legislation whisch is recognised by everybody that will have power to regulate international relations and up to reasonable measure - Internal affairs world wide.
>(Civil/Human rights, global warming ,Ecology etc)
>
>As I posted before on this forum, I do belive that this proccess has been effectively cancelled by actions taken since 2001, and will take long to reccuperate/continue.

I assure you that if 9/11 had not happened most Americans would have been quite content for Afghanistan to continue to do whatever it liked. ( in truth, most Americans would have never heard of Afghanistan )

But I don't think we owe the world altruism. We act in our own best interests, as have all nations throughout history. The really amazing thing is that we do not act in our own interests in proportion to our power. If 9/11 had been perpetrated by Iran there would not be an Iran right now. Remember this is a country that never saw a bomb in two world wars. It was a traumatic national event on a level that would have been unimagineable in 2000. Of course this had nothing to do with Iraq, but it explains why the mentality shifted to 'shoot first, ask questions afterward'. That is not to say this is a good thing, but it is very human.

I know most of the Middle Eastreally believe we went to war in Iraq to steal the oil. If that is the case this is the most incompetant theft in history. ( and it would have been much cheaper to cut a deal with Saddam. We could have supported the invasion of Kuwait - and Saudi Arabia - armed Saddam ( not with token intelligence etc as in the Iran/Iraq war but with serious American arms ) and controlled enough oil to have gas selling for 20c a gallon here. We do a lot of things that are probably ill-advised, but the image of America that is so popular in the Middle East is just not accurate. Saddam was a gangster and gangsters can be bought. It would have been much more efficient to rule Iraq through Saddam if that were our goal.

( oops, there I go, off on another rant ... sorry, I'm just another frustrated American wondering what we are doing over there and what we are getting in return ... )

I do agree that there are many complex agendas at work, driving foreign policy. Of course our most complicated one is the American oil interests that have kept us inter-twined with a region that would otherwise be irrelevant to us. Imagine the history of the last 100 years if oil were worthless. Imagine Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran. I actually think they'd be happier. I know we would.

>
>I admitedly overreact, when I hear (or mistake) people being arrogant twds middle east, because I believe that menu of this kind of thinking was purposely scattered and implanted via biased media, above mentioned accademic/political circles with agenda and root-interests which are far away from altruistic. Consecutive actions/results (wars) really worsened global situation.
>This is where all my 'beef' comes from. So again sorry if I missinterprted
>your posts and insulted you in any way.
>
>
>>>>Pornography, a lot of violence, homelessness ( which is very often the product of 'freedom' from forced instiutionalization of the mentally ill and chronically addicted ) are indeed terrible but they are side effects of freedom, not what the society has decided are worthy social goals.
>>>
>>>Or freedom from morals, real chance in life, free education, proper healt care or police enforcement all of them being worthy social goals.
>>
>>Okay, and where have these goals been acheived - Cyprus? The Balkans?
>>The Middle East? I understand we have not acheived the ideal society, but I think that never before in human history has more prosperity been coupled with more freedom than in societies than today are secular, democratic and trace their philosophical roots to the Enlightenment. Still a long way to go, but moving - with many missteps - in the right direction.
>
>
>I don't know about the rest of the Europe, but Cyprus is doing very well.
>Far from perfect but much better then US I wld say.
>I do not lock my car, Aldough I don't do that; You can in fact leave child to play alone or with other kids on the street or in the park. There is
>publich healtcare but also private Medical care which is reasonably priced and thus accessible/affordable to most of the people.
>No HOMELESS, drug addicts (aldough on rise) still nowhere to be meet or seen.
>Over 75% of people own their residences, and uneployment is amongst lowest in EU.
>
>Police is mostly doing their job, and nobody will come to solicit drugs to your tenage child. There are cases but they are dealt with.
>Man, people hit jail for 6 months - straight from the airport for having couple of joints in their possesion (I ABSOLUTELY ADMIRE IT!).
>
>And weather you believe it or not, I do believe that this is because of the fact that this country resistantly kept some traditional sociaty/family values, rather then blindly adopting western styles/trends.
>
>There4 I cannot really blame Iran or other Islamic ountries for being
>resistent to western values/practices. I do blame them for being
>problematic when it comes to human rights and nature of power, but other then that what can you possibly say ? Do they attack anybody militarily ? No. (Do we ?) - all they wanna do is keep their own turf (and some oil if possible).
>If they want to live in deeply religious islam society, I wld respect that and let them do so, for as long as they don't bother anybody else - until people there naturally and in big numbers, start aiming for next level in developing their society.
>
>In the meanwhile it would hv been good if Civilised World via UN had enough credits and also legal/actual powers to crack down on human rights abuses
>there.

I don't think this is going to happen with the UN. The representatives at the UN are only as good as the governments that send them.

>What is happening now (DemocracyDeliveryBussiness) is simply all wrong.
>Huh, this ended up being realy long message so that is all for now.
>Peace :)
>
>
>>>
>>>Peace :)
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=3142288&page=1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So much for cultural relativism. Suttee, clitoridectomy, honor killings, bride burning, gay-bashing and wilding are pretty good arguements for the idea that some cultures, while imperfect, are, in fact, superior to others.