>I think when someone that graduates from college with an 8th grade reading level there is a problem with the college. If someone is that far behind then it's the fault of the college for passing them.
>
>So let me get this straight. If a student does not become well educated from attending a university, it is the university and the professors who are 100% responsible because this is a result of their failure to teach. You believe that the student bears no responsibility for applying himself to his lessons and actually learning something. Is that right?

That's not what I mean of course. If the teachers are passing failing students then it's the teachers/school's fault for doing that. The reason behind WHY the students are failing isn't what I was talking about.

>It's also up to the teacher to teach & not pass students who can't even read. Sure the students need to study and learn - but if they don't then the teachers shouldn't pass them
>
>Actually, we agree on this one. However, the teachers' union is a large and powerful one. Because of the union, teachers get raises based on years of service and not on merit. Because of tenure, even if a teacher is incompetent, they still cannot be fired without going through major battles which could go on for years. Because of the union, we are stuck with the most mediocre and incompetent teachers.

Good point & I agree. I do recall hearing about some teachers who's pay IS based on the performance of their students and it was the state tests they were using. Problem is that then there was a problem with the teachers simply teaching how to pass the test instead of anything useful.

> like your college grad friend with an 8th grade reading level.
>
>I never said that I had friends with college degrees and 8th grade educations. I would not surround myself with such stupid people. I said that I knew people like that. Is everyone you know a personal friend of yours? Is that why you assumed that I was talking about one of my friends? Sorry, I am a lot more discriminating than that.

I guess it was an assumption on my part - but I do find it interesting that you called me shallow a few posts ago and then you say something like this.

>I take a look at my girlfriends 14 year old daughters school books (private school) and her friends 14 year old school books (public school that is ify). There is NO WAY you're going to convince me that both are getting the same education and one is not superior to the other.
>
>I graduated from a public school and I am doing just fine. Then again, I was a voracious reader and was reading Nietzsche and Jean-Paul Sartre for pleasure when I was a junior in high school.

Same here - but I went to one of the best public schools in the whole USA - as matter of fact it was rated #1 in the nation for several years in a row. None the less point is that some schools are better than others and provide better education.

>That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that some schools offer better education that others. Of course people can educate themselves - but that doesn't change the fact that some schools are better than others.
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>All of your posts seem to indicate that you believe that whether or not one is well educated depends on how prestigious the educational institution is. Now you are changing your tune and saying that one can educate oneself? So is this self-education inferior to an education that one gets in an institution? You cannot have it both ways.

You jumped in on this because I pointed out that Harvard is a better school than Iowa and that Harvard is going to provide a better education to their students. That didn't have anything to do with self-education...it's you that has said you can go to idiot-school and educate yourself as well as a Harvard professor could. So I still stand by the simple statement - some schools are better than others and of course you can educate yourself - but the topic here is not self-education - its about schools.

>hmmmm...we'll have to disagree I guess. Not sure how you determined that B.S. degree from University of Idaho is just as good as a law degree from Harvard.
>
>Good in what sense?
Education, prestige, job offers, life experience, people you'd meet..etc etc etc.

>Good in that a degree from Harvard with impress people more because it is from Harvard?
Yes

>Or good in the sense that the student became well-educated as a result of the experience?
Yes

>If it is the latter, it is my contention that it depends more on the student than the institution.
Yes but you have to have the right institution that will provide (or even CAN provide) the right experiences to begin with. If the experiences are easy teachers who pass everyone and 1/2 the students are drunk and fighting all the time I don't care who the student is, the experiences are not going to be as helpful as if they went to a better institution.

>However, I am a big believer in personal responsibility....
Same here. I also am a strong believer that better opportunities can provide better results. For example - if you're a Harvard grad there is obviously a lot more opportunities than if you are an Iowa grad - but it's still up to the person to be responsible to take advantage of those opportunities.