>>>>>>>For my ears, the french r is pronounced somewhere at the root of the tongue, not the tip (like most european ones are), so it's not so distinct (or rolled, as we call the english r), but I can clearly recognize when it's pronounced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I see the difference between 'crois' and 'croissant' as 'night' and 'day' :)
>>>>>
>>>>>Seeing it is easy. But do you hear it? :)
>>>>
>>>>Tamar is hearing the exact sound I am; so she and I were on the same page. Lutz was the first who correctly brought up the notion of nasal 'r' and not guttural 'r' that all the "experts" were hearing :)
>>>
>>>But listening to the Google translate page, I do hear more than the "w" I cited. And, in fact, I did say "something like 'kw'." I think nasal is the key here.
>>>
>>>I also think that Michel wasn't saying it was guttural, just that it was heard. To him, the distinction between the "r" in "crois" and the "r" is "Pierre" is a given.
>>>
>>>Tamar
>>
>>I think Michel should be sent to France for a re-certification {gr&d}
>
>I believe hearing a language is a very subjective experience. It has also a lot to do with training, in the sense that you know what you are supposed to hear to you do hear it, as if you are not sure what you are supposed to hear to you hear something completely different.

What comes to mind is the "L" and "R" problem that folks who speak Japanese may have with English -- they use a sound that is intermediate between "L" and a rolled Spanish "R" for both. Because of this, most English-speaking people are likely to think that Japanese people are transposing "L" and "R". "Lord of the Rings" ends up mangled as "Road of the Rings" or "Load of the Rings".

I keep forgetting which regional American accent that sounds like the "R" is being "misplaced" -- at times it seemingly disappears ("New York" ends up sounding like "New Yawk") and other times semingly inserted (e.g. "wash" sounds like "warsh") -- so you might hear "Tacoma, Washington" as "Tacomer Warshington"..