>>>No I mean if one argues that VFP plus something else e.g. PHP or JavaScript or anything then one argues for VFP plus learning other technologies that enhance your project and which is thus learning new dev-tools.
>
>So winDev renders HTML5/Bootstrap/whatever with the UI events etc without your having to write Javascript? If so then that's impressive and definitely how it needs to be IMHO. Though of course the FiC users would say that's why they chose their product too. My POV has been that exciting modern reliance on Rube Goldberg collections of technologies, is antisocial and opposite the usual contribution of technology that includes encapsulation and standardization => reliability. 4GL always was and still is a great development principle IMHO.

Not quite. The point I’m making in my above comment is that if one argues for VFP plus some other tool e.g. PHP, JavaScript, CSS, whatever then one is doing two things;

1) One is no longer just comparing VFP to another dev-tool on its own merits, and
2) One is advocating the need to learn another dev-tool.

In respect of point #1; no, VFP is not best in class anymore and I put WinDev out there only as one example of a modern dev-tool which for all intents and purposes outshines VFP. I am sure there are others such as .Net or modern implementations of Python from what I have read even in this forum.

In respect of point #2; once one decides to go down the road of learning new tools then really various dev-tools should be given a look because tools like WinDev give VFP developers the easiest learning curve due to the vast similarities between the two products.

There are 3 development products in the PCSoft suite of tools which are:

1) WinDev – this is primarily, but not exclusively, used for developing Windows desktop applications. Can also be used to develop Windows or Linux service apps, Linux apps, Windows 10 apps for phone and tablets, SOAP or REST web services, Java archives, or a .Net assembly containing WinDev classes. It is the product most comparable to VFP in respect of purpose.

2) WinDev Mobile – this is, as the name suggests, primarily used for developing mobile device applications.

3) WebDev – this is used for developing websites and web-apps which I will clarify further down.

There is a common language for all 3 development tools which PCSoft call “WLanguage”. This language is very xBase like and is obviously derived from xBase. Any VFP developer will immediately understand WLanguage coding when they see it. That is a BIG learning curve flattener.

The WLanguage syntax between all 3 platforms is the same. Learn WLanguage in WinDev and you also know the coding language for WinDev Mobile and WebDev.

The Integrated Development Environment between all 3 platforms is for all intents and purposes the same. Learn how to build a WinDev application and you essentially also know it for WinDev Mobile and WebDev. (WebDev, or more accurately web development, presents its own unique problems however regarding session state).

Not all functions in one development platform are available in another. Usually this is because it does not apply. Some functions which are useful in a desktop environment might not be allowed in a web environment, for example. Also, not all functions have been migrated from WinDev to the other platforms as yet as Mobile and Web versions are newer products from PCSoft. But each release brings many new functions and enhancements to all 3 platforms.

To answer you specifically re: “So winDev renders HTML5/Bootstrap/whatever with the UI events etc without your having to write Javascript? If so then that's impressive and definitely how it needs to be IMHO. “

Your question applies to WebDev, not WinDev. The short answer is yes, you do NOT need to learn or use JavaScript. But you can use it if you want to. You can also use PHP in WebDev if you want to. But WLanguage is the only language you need to develop web applications/sites – the common, xBase style language common to all PCSoft suite of development tools.

To understand WebDev I need to explain that there are 2 primary types of web products you can build in WebDev:

1) Static Websites: You use WebDev to visually design pages which can contain buttons and links, images, text, tables, charts, any control really. It can also contain code BOTH on the browser side AND on the server side. However in static websites the page layouts and content are fixed, they are not generated dynamically. The pages are actually converted into HTML for you. Code can be written in the common WLanguage of the suite of tools (default) and thus access the various WebDev functions set. Code is executed either on the browser side or the server side depending on its purpose. AND you can add browser side JavaScript code if you want to - but this is not required except for special cases and for functionality you cannot find in WebDev’s function set. This is the simplest type of web product WebDev can make.

2) Dynamic Websites: You again use WebDev to visually design pages which can contain buttons and links, images, text, tables, charts, any control really. It can also contain code BOTH on the browser side AND on the server side. However, unlike static website pages Dynamic sites can create pages on the fly and in response to user actions, choices, etc. Pages can be static if desired but now also totally dynamic with controls showing/not showing or the content in them changing, etc. Code can still be written in the common WLanguage of the suite of tools (default) and thus access the various WebDev functions set. Code is executed either on the browser side or the server side depending on its purpose. AND you can add browser side JavaScript code if you want to - but this is not required except for special cases and for functionality you cannot find in WebDev’s function set.

In addition, WebDev will maintain session state between pages so a user can work with pages and carry over variables between pages, maintain database record pointers/positions, run queries, update tables dynamically, etc. Effectively WebDev treats the Dynamic website much more like an application than just a website.

You can create a PHP website but program it in WLanguage without knowing PHP, although have not tried it and cannot speak with any knowledge on it.

3) All sites types support Ajax as well. For example, you can browse a large database in a web page, make edits to it, search in columns, sort, etc. just like you could with a local app and a local data file, with all actions and updates coordinating to the server without you programming anything. Just stick a table control on a page, link it to the data file, specify options required/allowed, and go!

Just as an example of the power of Dynamic websites we created a proof of concept website which emulates a windowed environment like in a desktop app. Windows could contain charts or tables of data or text or whatever. The user could create multiple windows, arrange them, update them, change them, resize them, etc. and then save the arrangement as a workspace to be recalled at a later time. I include a screenshot for clarity. This was Just a test to see if a few things were possible, it is not a polished solution. No Javascript programming used although perhaps that would be a useful thing to use, I don’t know. But this was just using WLanguage which is essentially xBase but with many more functions and features.

You can learn more about WebDev by looking at the PCSoft online help discussion on website types - https://doc.windev.com/en-US/?1410087102&name=Cpt_WB_P0_Summary

The most exciting thing I am hearing / seeing now is the apparent move by PCSoft towards converting WinDev (i.e. desktop applications) to become WebDev applications (i.e. run over the web). I can see what they are trying to get to which is to allow developers with large WinDev applications to port them to the internet without needing to re-work aspects to handle session state AND without needing 3rd party Terminal Server style middle-man solutions like TSPlus (or they will use their own middle-man software somehow). This would be really awesome.


>>>I know for a fact that we coming from VFP are more productive in WinDev in all respects.
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>Great. I get that all this typing is dead time - but where are you seeing the increased efficiency?

More useful IDE, more powerful controls, many automated things that do not require programming, many built-in features that require 3rd party tools in VFP, automatic database management/updates … Lots of places.


>>> There is nothing we can’t do in WinDev which I could in VFP but there are many things which I can do in WinDev only which you can’t do in VFP only.
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>Certainly I'd be interested to compare with WinDev for the sort of VFP app that makes extensive use of VFP's local SQL and non-SQL data munging against tables included in the exe. Also would be interested to compare database change management that comes for free (no code) with the VFP RV and CA. IMHO if you're not using features like these then there never was a compelling reason to use VFP, as we discovered in early NET days when certain people who claimed to have moved to something far better, would come back to VFP forums to declare that change management is outdated or that data doesn't need NULLs. Clearly that's not you, which is why I'm interested in your experience.

The data handling is very akin to VFP. Reading local databases, navigating through records, selecting data, creating files and populating on the fly with processed data, etc. It will all be so familiar to a VFP programmer. I don’t say everything is the same but I cannot imagine one getting stuck and being unable to replicate something you currently do in VFP. I don’t think so.


>Interesting discussion, thanks. Maybe we can do a show and tell at the next FoxFest as it would be very interesting to see comparisons of development effort and result. – J

Well like I have said a few times, we are hardly experts and we definitely do not use the tools to their proper potential. We are hacks but what we have hacked seems to be very useful to us coming from VFP. Many things we have not used, many features, so cannot even comment on their usefulness or uselessness. I try and give an honest review. For example, I have heard complaints about the groupware, the PCSoft solution for managing multiple programmers working as a group on a project. I have heard complaints about bugs that people have found. Are these problem user issues or genuine problems? I don’t know. And we have had our own struggles to learn some things and that was frustrating but, and hard to admit, often it was us who made ass-umptions without understanding something properly. But nothing is perfect I guess.