Erik,

Menus may still have a place, I just don't think they are the best choice for the "main" way of getting around an app. As for pet peeves, one of MY biggest ones is custom data applications (ie VFP!) where it is obvious that the UI - and by that I mean aesthetic as well as functional UI - has been an afterthought. Like it or not, an app will be primarily judged my the end users (our ultimate customers) by how it looks and feels - not by how good the SQL clause is or whether we used SCAN/ENDSCAN or DO WHILE loops, or if it is monolthic vs component based, or whether we followed OOP guidelines to a T. Honetly, those things matter only in as much as they cause or fix a significant END USER performance issue.

Now - I'm not advocating style over substance. The app has to run and run right. However, it would behoove most developers to make the look and feel an EQUALLY important issue with all other parts of the application. I've seen MANY VFP and other apps over the years - many of them quite good "behind the scenes", and my reaction to most is - geez that's ugly!!!!

"Unintuitive, confusing " apps have nothing to do with menus vs graphics vs buttons vs toolbars, but only poor programming period. As for "standard" I think a good dose of going for "anything but standard" is needed in this rather drab insustry! At the risk of offending people - most programmers in our niche are clueless about how to make an app "look good". It is amazing to me that managers who go straight to graphic artists for company lettehead, brochures, etc. entrust the UI of the apps to - well- computer geeks <bg>!

Perhaps I am biased because I came up through the ad agency industry, programming for "artists", but I look at it as a huge advantage. There are methods of presenting choices to users that maintain all the advantages of menus - compact, well organized, etc. - that also are more visual and equally functional. As for intuitive - clicking on a picture of a "work order folder" or a "smiling client face" is a LOT more intuitive than running down the choice in a menu!

Finally, as for MS "standards" - you have to be kidding! I follow them in as far as they are right and make sense. Some do - some don't. If you think the ultimate in "intuitive, attactive, easy to navigate, etc ,etc ,etc" apps is Outlook, or word, or excel, etc. - and want your apps to "look" like that. all I can say is - knock yourself out! Frankly, I trust my own judement (and that of my partners) much more than I do that of MS on this subject.

Thanks!
Ken


>I disagree. Just because the basic visual representaion of a menu hasn't changed for years, doen't make it archaic. Menus are concise, naturally hierarchical, often self-explanatory, and very functional. I will not argue that apps don't need any other means of navigation, but, IMHO most decent sized apps still need menus.
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>It is a personal pet peeve of mine when a developer has gone through great lengths to make his app colorful, and full of icon and pictures, but the end result is still an unintuitive, confusing, anything-but-standard app. Have you used Acrobat Reader 3.0? All of the browser functionality lives in toolbar buttons with NO F***ING TOOLTIPS! The authors carefully chose cute little pictures for every button on the toolbar, but the user has to guess what each one does. There are simply not enough pixels in most toolbar buttons to allow a picture that decriptively explains what the buttons does.
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>And the lack of menus in an app does away with the ability of a user to become a "power user", because shortcut keys, if they exist, are not easily discoverable. Windows standards say that any functionality available in a toolbar should be duplicated in a menu item somewhere, and I think this is great policy.
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>Just my .12
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>>PMFJI - but c'mon everybody! Menu's are about the most archaic way of presenting "action options" to users I can think of - think VISUAL folks! We could stand to learn a lot about modern UI from some of the multimedia and game programmers.
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>>Just my .02
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>>Ken
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>>>>Is there going to be any changes to VFP's menuing?
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>>>No changes to the menuing system were mentioned that I can remember. And since OO menus have been requested for a millenia and have not been incorporated, we probably won't see them.
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>>>Bill