John,

>Walter, I tend to look at these issues from a more practical view point. As somebody who holds a graduate degree in Information Systems, I am all too familar with the ACADEMIC distinctions you are making... You really don't want to debate me here. If you choose to, fine. Do you prefer your crow baked or broiled...

Maybe you should slam me with these the next time. On this issue we were talking on different levels. I wonder why do you think you know more about this than me. I hold a simular degree. The only difference maybe the time we got this degree: mine was '95

>The fact is, you can write database apps just fine in VB. Or perhaps you would like to tell the millions of folks doing so that they cannot do what they are doing......

I'm not saying that you cannot do this within VB. I'm only thinking that much of these database apps could be written more easely (and better maintainable) within VFP. And I truly believe that if MS would promote VFP a bit more on the database issue, more data intensive applications are going to be written in VFP in favour of VB.

>Lets not try to get hung up on labels here. Then again, you are pureist. You have labeled yourself an OO pureist. Purists tend to be rigid in their thinking.

That's incorrect. I never labeled myself as a OO pureist.

>>First. There are two forms. Data input and data output. both can be formatted files, like ASCII, Excell files, and addtional hardware. You can easely write all kinds of monitors within VB without using a DBMS, though I don't know if you regard this a business application. Also you can easely write applications wich controls external hardware which don't have anything to do with DBMSs.
>
>Walter, I can write apps that monitor the COM port and talk to external devices in VFP. What is your point....???? All the forms of data you enumerate above can be handled in VB and VFP.

You asked about general purpose business programs. These are creatable within native VB.

>You are basically attempting to make the point that you cannot write DB apps in VB. That simply is not true...

No i'm not. See above.

>>You were attacking my comments wich are based on local basis. Your reply doesn't change this. Besides, the world is larger than the US and Europe. What there happens we both can't see clearly.

>It is not personal, I just don't think you happend to know a lot about the VB side of things....

I agree, I don't. But of some things I know just enough to make a judgement.

>>This is really not this issue john, I (asuming that Wim was also) was talking about IDEs not the syntax of the language itself. Your reply doesn't change this.

>Walter, it was YOU who made the IDE an issue...

Let's not fight about this argument. let's leave it at that I was talking about IDEs. If there was any confusion about this I appoligize.


>>Well i've alot of both.. What are you telling me john ? We both know that in general because VB lacks visual classes it requires more cut and pasting than VFP (if you want to skip the activeX part).
>
>Cutting and pasting code is bad. If you had good design, you did not need to resort to it in FPW, and you don't need to resort to it in VB.

I'll give an example up here. In my framework applications i use special kinds of textboxes, comboboxes and editboxes for data-entry. These are put in a visual class. Lets sum up what's in this class:

- Active3d (self invented name). The control is flat when not having the focus, and has a dark border and has the same backcolor as the form. When it recieves the focus it becomes 3D with a whitebackcolor.
- Autocomplete for the comboboxes. This is a combobox which automaticly searches for matching data in lookup tables as you type (in the IE way). Evolved from the autocomplete combobox Ken Weber posted.
- Color state sensitive. Depending on the state of the data (Not changed, changed, readonly, unbound) it displays the contents in another color which has the advantage that anyone can see in one instant what has changed or not.
- Filtering. As a part of the framework there is a mechanism to filter the bound table on field on the value of the of the control.
- Search. There is code available to make a control sensitive search.
- some more...

This all is done in visual classes. A VB programmer has either to cut and paste this code (or the control itself) or choose for a ActiveX solution.

>Walter, don't take what I am saying personally. It is my conclusion that you are criticizing a product that you are not at all familar with... As for my knowledge of application development and RDBMS thoery go, I have a few books on the market, over 50 published articles, and some big applications under my belt. What do you have????

I think I know just enough to make the statements I did in our conversation. If I was wrong I'd admited this.

Well O.K. I won't take it personally, but to answer your question. I don't write books and articles because I am not a writer. I really have difficulties to write acceptable english senteces and my typing rate is far from fast. I too have some big applications under my belt (I ought to make a living don't I ?) and spend my time doing research on user interfaces. Besides this I like to discuss theories and technological issues on the UT.

But really i feel you are trying to say, well I've written books and articles so I must be right ! No John, this is not the way it works. Too many people have written that it is absolutely a good idea to have a tag on deleted(), by now we know it isn't.

Walter,