Hi Alex..

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>>>Of course, and no personal attack or disrespect intended, but I see it as ludicrous. What I understood is that you believe that God lets us do whatecer we want, gave us freedom of choice, but of course He knows all the choices we'd make anyway. So he condones everything we do if at some point we repent and embrace Him. Something like that?
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>>First of all I know and accept that you mean no disrespect whatsoever. And, I appreciate that very much! I hope you are aware that I, too, mean none, though we might disagree. I seem to recall that you are Muslim and I know that I will most likely and inadvertantly offend you when I am able to ask you some question, which I hope you will not take personally should I ask a 'dumb' question. <g>
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>Muslim? With that last name? Not at all! I'm Jewish as heritage, but an agnostic.

Whoops!! *blush* Right you are. <g> Sorry 'bout that. (Note to self: Pay more attention.. <g>)

Do you accept the formal definition of agnostic then?

Gnostic = one who has knowledge
a-Gnostic - NOT one who has knowledge

IOW, you're just admitting that you really do not know as opposed to not wanting to know as some use the term?

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>>Now, as to your thinking that what I said was 'ludicrous'. I can understand why you might have that reaction. One of the very difficult concepts to reconcile is this apparent contradiction between the notion of God's omniscience (all-knowing) and His justice and his mercy. It's confusing if you haven't studied it no doubt - particularly since today's socity so poorly explains it.
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>Apparent contradiction? Not so! It is illogical as I explained in my post. That you make a 'leap of faith' and suspend the laws of nature and logic may be Ok with you. As I also said, an immovable object and an irresistible force cannot both logically exist in this universe. Period. As for other universes, I don't know.

Well, perhaps this part of the discussion would be more profitable in person as there is just a whole huge amount of issues that would require more than this medium provides.

I would only suggest that God (which is a title not a name) by definition would be beyond our ability to fully comprehend him. So, at some point it would be reasonable to accept knowledge that is 'above' me. However the Historic Christian position very much insists that prople think and be reasoning beings.

IOW, for me, after looking at the facts it just makes sense. Having said that I must admit that it also requires some help from God.

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>>First of all, while God has given man choice, and has chosen to honor the choices man has made, God also has warned man about making bad choices. Sexual impurity is one of these areas for example.
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>Again the question. Which god? You seem to be talking about one and only one Christian God. The rest are puppets. There are millions of true believers that would disagree.

Well, speaking for myself I'd say the God of both the Jewish people and those of the Historic Christian faith. He identifies Himself as (as best as we can determine) YHVH. We really do not know the correct spelling or pronunciation. This God identifies Himself as the only God so anyone who has a problem with that should take it up with Him.


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>By not being sexually 'faithful' mankind has unleashed upon himself all kinds of sexually transmitted diseases.
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>As I answered in another message, many religions, Mormons included, accept poligamy. Maybe some accept promiscuity. As a reminder, religion does not have a monopoly or exclusivity on morality.

Sure, but you're arguing from the lessor to the greator. Using that 'logic' one could also say that murder is also a part of religion since man has been killing man equally as long as he has been committing poligamy. The Jewish and Historic Christian faiths proclaim that God gave them their 'laws' and so forth.

Again, my assertion stands IMO. Not that it will happen but the simple fact of the matter is is that if man gave up certain sexual behavior then the diseases that flow from that behavior would simply stop. Are you saying that it wouldn't? Or that man will not stop? If the latter we agree.

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>Some actually would blame God for this and that is unreasonable.
>God told man not to do this and that if man did there would be bad consequences. Well, man has disobeyed God many times here and, guess what, some very bad consequences have happened. Man is responsible for misusing those 'choices' in this case.
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>Of course its unreasonable, and very convenient. If I screwed up it's God's fault. Easy.
>A lot of people take credit for their successes and their mistakes without attribution to divine intervention, or magic which is about the same, but by taking responsibility for their personal actions.

Well, then how can you also argue for having a will of your own then? You're just a robot that is incapable of making an independent decision. I'd think not. You have a will and you make the decisions that affect your life - but along with those decisions comes responsibility - even if only to yourself and those you love.

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>God does not condone everything we do, which I think is one area you may have misinterpreted what I said.
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>Having said that God does forgive man if man turns around 180 degrees (old English word is 'repent') and goes the opposite direction. However, there are many times people 'fake' this and it's pretty obvious when you watch their lives whether or not they really meant it.
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>As I said before, then a mass murderer that 'truly repents', according to your explanation, is absolved and can live a wonderful life afterwards. The victims and justice be damned. Guys like Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, etc. just had to see the light and repent and all would be well.

Yes, if a mass murderer 'truly repents' (emphasis on truly from God's pov) then, yes, they will be forgiven. However that in no way will remove from them the responsibility for what they did. They should pay. All would not be well as you say. The thing here Alex is the notion of who is determinging the content of the word 'truly'. God sees everything including our thoughts. He would really know whether 'truly' actually meant 'truly' I'd bet. <g>

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>>>So in that view, the Crusades, Inquisition, pogroms, slavery, torture, burning young women at the stake, child labor, child pornography, etc. ad nauseam are OK because we can have our choice, just repent for your sins at the end?
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>>>Amazing!
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>>No, not at all. I would wholeheartedly condemn all of the above. From my pov this would be an example of people making bad choices and personally I think that God will hold each individual personally accountable for those decisions.
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>If that is so, why did God allow them to do that in His name? No punishment? No help for the victims?

Well, as opposed to stepping in and stopping something nasty while it was happening? TOugh question and in one sense I honestly do not know. I've often thought that if I were God I'd have put a stop to some of this a long time before now. I'm not so I cannot. I'm thinking that this is going to be tied up in the notion of God's longsuffering. Again, this is surely one of those subjects that is 'weighty' and deserve serious thought.

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>When a busload of children, driven by a nun fall into a gorge and all die. Was that God's will? He could've saved them, couldn't he? Or were these little children all sinners?

You mean like when my son was hit by a car and took his last breath as I held him? Sure, I've thought about stuff like this Alex. Yes, sometimes things happen that absolutely do not seem 'fair' to us but remember, we are not God and I'm confident that when we see things from His POV it will all make 'sense'. Besides, isn't it more than a littel presumptuous to think that God should follow our 'rules'? I don't.

First of all, yes, we are all sinners. That is, using the classinc definition of 'sin', we all 'fall short' or 'miss the mark'. There was an old archery game called 'Sinner' where the contestants would take ten arrow and shoot them through a hoop. Missing one or all ten caused one to 'miss the mark' or sin. Same for us with God. The lack of absolute perfection is sin, if you will.

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>So either He could not save them, in which case he's not omnipotent, or he did not see it coming, in which case he's not omniscient or he didn't care or wanted it to happen, in which case I do not want Him as my God as that would amount to murder.

Or, He knew who would be saved and the bus crash made no difference whatsoever. You and I cannot limit God to our thinking I'd think. I will admit that there are things that happen in life that really stink. But I'm not going to blame God for them when there is a more appropriate thing called evil.

If God says "Do not steal" and we steal why are we blaiming Gof for the theft and not the thief?

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>>I must congratulate you though. Paul the Apostle was accused of doing exactly what you brought up and I am impressed with your deductive skills.
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>>Essentially, in terms that I would typically use in Christian circles, what you have stated is this:
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>>God's grace gives me total freedom from the consequences of ALL past bad decisions. Rather than using that freedom for more bad choices (your example above) we should use that freedom for new good choices.
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>Again, you are saying that a mass murderer should get "total freedom from the consequences of ALL past bad decisions".

No, in the sense of personal responsibility - absolutely not! From the pov of whether or not God would forgive someone who 'truly' repents, absolutely yes!

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>I don't agree, I think he should get the chair, the sooner the better.

In the case of this dictional mass murderer that might be too kind. But, that is certainly a good option. Some sort of punishment should be administered IMO.

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>>When you are satisfied, and if you are willing, I'd like to ask you a few questions about your faith - presuming I've correctly understood you. I feel like a dunce and I'd like to learn more - understanding that you may not be comfortable with it.
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>Ask away. Anytime. Faith? Very little except faith in myself (a lot of that).

Alex, thanks a bunch for your time and thoughts. I'm not expecting we will always agree - only that we'll be wanting to listen and interact.