>>I am confident in what I believe Mike, no doubt.
>
>You are also confident that deep down I believe what you believe, and it isn't. So get off your horse.

Not at all. I'm just curious what you believe - even if you think it's nothing. I'd just disagree that it's nothing.

From what I've read it's hedonism plain and simple. You call it 'fun'.

>
>>I'm picking at that for the very obvious reason that you're trying to hide behind a non-answer. And, from the tone of your reply it looks like I'm real close..
>
>Real close at pissing me off?

Uhh.. Your emotional state is none of my business. If you cannot control your temper that's something you'll need to learn how to do I guess.

No offense but you're emotional state is not a central part of my thinking process...


>
>>what I'm asking you to do is admit that your so-called 'non standard' is actually a standard in its own right. That's all..
>
>I have standards, values, morals, ideals, yes. But I'm not going to tie myself to a belief if I don't believe it. I also don't want to lead my life by a belief because the world will change alot faster than a silly belief will. They're too hard to change.

I'm not asking you to 'tie yourself' to anything Mike. I'm just interested in finding out if you realize that in spite of your loud protests to the contrary to do indeed have a set of core beliefs. That's all.

>
>>And yet, when I read your messages it sure looks like to me that you're the one tossing accusatory judgements around. Have I ever asserted that your illustrations are 'pointless'?

No, I don't think you have nor have I at any point in time felt threatened by those who have disagreed with my having a set of beliefs. Perhaps you don't understand that for me 'beliefs' is a much larger word than just spiritual. It also involves human nature, behavior, financial and political systems (and how they work) etc..

>
>A. As much as you would like to think it, you aren't "Swimming circles around me here", plus, it was just an unneeded explitive. Therefor, your analogy was pointless, and you've got lots of them. It wasn't a judgment, its what I consider a fact. Now YOU, call me a sub-bar thinker I cause I see a swear word as just another word for ones you use. Thats an opinion and a judgement.

I think we're talking past each other on this issue. My point all along has been the notion that folks who use swear words aren't using their highest thinking capabilities. That's not to say they don't have them - they're just not using them at that point. I fully understand that from your pov you do not ascribe more or less value to any given word.

That's two separate issues I'd think..

>
>>You still haven't given me any proof that coarse and base language is better or more enlightened...
>
>Its just a word, Doug! "THere's shit on the floor" "There's excrememnt on the floor". Its the same damn thing, but you are apparently offended by one, for what logical reason?

Well, maybe it's because I see no reason to use words like that whe I converse with others. Oh, and in the past I'd bet I could teach you one or two.. <g> I used to have a pretty filthy mouth Mike. And the words don't offend me in the way I take your meaning. They are just an indication to me in my mind that the person using them has a ways to go in their reading of Miss Manners. <g>

For me it really boils down to respect for my listener. I'd be very embarrassed to inadvertantly offend someone. Perhaps that's the difference..

>
>>Well, because every position is some form of a belief system.
>
>Belief is a strong word. I have an idea of how I should act and what life means. I don't believe anything, its too strong of a word.

Well, belief is only a strong word if it's defined strongly. If you mean 'unthinking' I'd quite agree. I find 'unthinking belief' pretty lame - dude, you know.. <g>

And don't get me started on my dear Christian bretheren who believe but in the process don't think. Ughh.. Sore spot there... <g>

>
>>And, no offense, but it doesn't appear to me that I'm the one who's being 'close minded' here. I'm just asserting that you have a belief system just as much as anyone else does. Perhaps you just haven't connected those dots yet..
>
>Ok, for the last freaking time. You are insisting that I have something I don't have, or want at the moment. You cannot accept this. You think that I don't know what I have. You are wrong, I know whats going on in mind. You can't accept this. You think I don't know because I'm not as old as you. Well, guess what, I'M NOT YOU. You can't accept this. Accept it, deal with it, pray for it, whatever the hell you want to do, but there is and always will be more than one type of person in the world. To ignore that is just plain closed-minded.

Regardless whatever that is it is a belief system of sort. Perhaps if I use the phrase 'value system'? Whatever the contents you have one. I'd be interested in discussing those contents but that's not my point.

Even the Nihilist believes in nothing as though it were something. <g>

>
>>Mike, how in the world can you be so sure I'm just blindly following my beliefs?
>
>How in the world can you be so sure I have them? I don't care if their blind or not, they;re still next to impossible to change, which sucks.

Ahh.. Interesting.. Am I correctly understanding you that you would like to change them but that you somehow feel 'helpless' to so do?

If so I applaud your painful honesty - which I very much respect.

>
>>No.. I've struggled in ways you'll most likely never understand - and that I'd not want you to understand - to get to where I'm sure of my thought process.
>
>And you are obviously the only one on the planet who's absorbed mass quantaties of narcotics and come close to the end? I was a high schooler with alot of money...

No, but that wasn't the point Mike. The point was that I had gone through the process - something you're really fighting here it seems. <g>

>
>>if God does exist it's better in terms of aligning your mind with reality to believe in Him rather than denying Him, don't you think?
>
>Nope.

Your call. Not a wise one but I respect your right to make it.

>
>>Now, if He does not exist, as I've mentioned to Erik, it makes a lot more sense to simply not bother. But, for those in this 'camp' then I just have to wonder why they get so angry at those of us who do believe in God?
>
>We're not mad at you for believing, its after you hear things like "I don't have any beliefs" and say "yes you do" that pisses us off. Thats arrogant.

Us? You and I are the only ones having this discussion unless you're griping about me offline to someone. <g>

I still stand by my assertion that everyone has some sort of belief system. Even if it's total self absorption it is a set of values that that individual follows. That's just a reality.

Just remember that others have struggled with this, ok?

And, thank you for your hugely personal thoughts.