Doug

it is not the disagreeing that gets to those on the other side of this thread, but the tone in your writing. instead of saying something like 'you guys get on and do that and i will do this, and perhaps together we can accomplish more', you tell us we are in a panic expending emotional energy that could be far better spent if we did it your way, or just shut up, trust ms and let them rule the roost. we are all (apart from ms) supposed to be on the same side here, so as far as i am concerned, why don't we support each other as in the quotes above and get on with life? as i see it, there is no one solution to this problem, so the aim of this thread should be mutual support and the seeking of more and more ways we can try to persuade ms, or even just make ms aware that inexpensive 'marketing' instead of a couple of cheap ads to the chior is needed.

i do recall that in the early part of the last centuary, women weren't allowed to vote. if they kept their mouths shut and just towed the line and believed blindly that the powers that be were aware of their desires, do you folks that are averse to vociferously drawing attention to the VFP situation believe that they would be voting today? sure as hell NO! they would still be packin' lunch for pappy to go stand in line to screw up his punchcard (not to mention the fun he could have impregnating his chad!). i am sure there are a couple of other such examples that could be used. perhaps the civil rights issues, freedom of choice, gay rights, etc, etc,... no?

john