Tamar,

>>I will start by noting you have now inserted "organized" into the discussion which is a narrowing of the issue.
>
>No, that's not a change. I made the point early in our discussion that the issue was prayer led by staff and that personal prayer is permitted.

Ok, what if the kids elect someone from the staff to lead the prayer for them?

>
><< I would ask what you should do when the vast majority do want to pray in the morning? >>
>
>Well, my immediate reaction is that they ought to do it before they come to school. Nothing stops a student from praying at home or going to church before school

*chuckle*

And during tests and so forth, sure. Still the minority is tyrannizing the majority IMO.

>
>More to the point, in our system of government, it's irrelevant that the majority want to do this if it violates the constitution. This has nothing to do with offending people.

Sure it does. If someone weren't "offended" they wouldn't bring suit. Or, are you suggesting that this is the result of a specific agenda of a select few? <g> Psstt.. Mr. ACLU... <g>

>
>As you've pointed out several times in this thread, a lot of what's in the Constitution, especially as regards the rights of the individual, is specifically to avoid the tyranny of the majority.
>
>Right now, or at least in the past few weeks, it's safe to say that the majority of Americans don't want people to talk about pacificism. There's a general objection to the idea that going to war may not be a good thing. (I don't want to get into that issue here, btw - I'm just using it as an example.) However, our Constitution says that free speech is protected, so regardless of the wishes of the majority, those people who would promote pacificism are entitled to have their say.

Sure, and I have no problem with a pacifist taking to the public square and arguing their point of view. I'd actually appreciate it personally and have noticed a change in my own position over the last month as well. I think that's good and essentially that's a big part of my rationale for not removing prayer but including others so the kids can get exposed. I've never seen an empty book teach much and I think that while we're in the process of emptying our cultural of its heritage we should stop and think about the long-term ramifications of what we're doing. Again, you make my point IMO. <g>

>
>It's the same with religion. It may be the case that the vast majority of students want to start the school day with a prayer (frankly, I doubt it, but I'll accept your premise for the moment). The Constitution says that the government shall not establish a religion. So, the real question we're addressing here is whether authority figures running prayer in schools is an establishment of religion. The Supreme Court says it is; I agree with them.

Yes, the SUpreme Court has said that and, as the law of the land, I'll obey it. I do however think they are wrong in their 'reach'. I suppose our discussion stops here?

>
>Having said all that, I still don't see what rights any child loses by not having organized prayer in school.

As I've mentioned before - they may not lose any right but mine might. Perhaps we've elevated some other concept like 'desire' to 'right'?

>
>>Having said that to answer your question directly, I don't suppose they are but I would ask you how they are by making provision for those who wish to organize prayer in public schools? Mind you, I am not suggesting that any child should be forced, only that those who so wish may organize themselves up to and including using thee facilities.
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>I can't speak in general, but I am aware of "Christian clubs" and other organizations that are using school facilities.
>
>>The problem I see is underlying the whole issue here and it's the gradual secularizing of society and from that pov I do indeed think that the rights of that child are being violated.
>
>I think I read recently that church membership in this country is higher than ever, but I may be wrong about that.

Yeah, well, I suspect that by now you know my thoughts on the difference between 'religion' and 'relationship', particularly with respect to organized Protestant churches. <g> Maybe I'm just being a curmudgeon.. <g>

Best,


DD

A man is no fool who gives up that which he cannot keep for that which he cannot lose.
Everything I don't understand must be easy!
The difficulty of any task is measured by the capacity of the agent performing the work.