Steve,
I was going to SNIP a bunch but decided it was better left in.
When I first started using UT I recall you railing on very frequently about the 'auto-quote' feature and how it left a bunch of crap in there for no good reason when the thread environment' was specifically designed to obviate such a need.
Now here, a little into your example, you complain about too much clicking (which I assume includes mousing). Wouldn't the absence of quotes make for much more mousing/clicking?
While I find your example clear and it does suggest something that would be useful overall, it does relate strictly to the "take" side of the equation. Now I don't argue that when one pays for a service it is generally with getting something OUT OF IT in mind.
But I know that I also value the "community" side of this thing. That includes things like ways to tackle problems, theoretical questions, CHATTER, opinions on social/business/etc matters. This, no doubt, is why I find the signal-to-noise ratio very acceptable to me.
Again, just wanting to express my viewpoint on the overall utility of UT for ME.
Cheers
>Ric, I think you're misunderstanding a key element.
>
>It's not all about keeping people's scores, though the system could well do that, and the most thoughtful and helpful among us might appreciate the business that naturally comes from being genuinely valuable online.
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>This is really more about identifying great takes, and elevating them so more people can easily identify and see them.
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>So in other words, it's about rewarding great ideas, and great expressions of insight, and secondarily about identifying the people who are behind them.
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>It's not about surrogate twit filters. or anything else, really.
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>=====
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>Here's an example. I have nearly 18 years experience of clipper/xBase/Fox experience. I've worked in over a dozen countries for companies big and small. I come here every day, and mostly I do not answer questions nor do I read more than maybe 25 messages per day. I could do more of both but I don't because it's just too frustrating. Too much clicking, scrolling, reading, and generally getting nothing out of it. Many days I see the big list of messages, and I don't click any of them.
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>My UT usage algorithm is as follows:
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>- Zero-in and focus on high value posters. These are (in my 25-message per day experience over the years) in no particular order Rick Strahl, David Frankenbach, John Ryan, Ken Levy, Yag, Tamar Granor, Sergei, Christof Lange, Bill Anderson, but very few others. I'll also occasionally read posts by other friends. I know there are some other great people saying valuable things but I don't have the time or the patience to search and dig.
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> - Next I look for posts by people whom I know are abusive of the position they've somehow achieved. These are people who pose as clairvoyants, but generally give terrible and demonstrably odious advice.
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>
>That's it. I miss about 400 messages a day because scrounging them is a very low, arguably negative, payoff proposition. I *know* I'm missing something that someone may have spent 20 minutes composing and contributing, and I'm poorer for it, but it's just not possible to get more than minimal value from the UT unless one has a lot more time, which I don't have, for increasingly marginal returns.
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>I would read much more, and respond much more, and generally give more if I knew that the time I spent online could be leveraged by others. In other words, if my time online was more productive, and if my time also made other people more productive by flagging really great takes or by down-flagging the messages I stumble-upon that are off-topic, personal, or technically without value. It's a total win-win proposition.
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>Note that messages will accrue value over time, and not become immediately quasi-worthless and buried by the next day, as well over 95% of all messages do now. Imagine looking at a list of all the posts from the past month or year, sorted descending by the sum of their +/- thumbs...
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>The one-star three-star thread-originator system we have now underachieves in a very, very big way. It shows us answers or partial answers to maybe 10% of the questions, and it does not reward good insight or the expression of engineering judgement that always comes with non-trivial software problems. It's also shown us precisely who some of the "givers" are, and that's obviously good, but aside from that, it's non-participative and it's but a shadow of what we truly could use and value.
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>**--** Steve
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>
>>Well, to you all I say good day. I am 'new', have been for the last three years or so. I have a twit filter, but it is empty. I have an online tracker, and believe it or not most of the people who have been on this thread are on it. Why? Because I don't know enough, so when I come online, I look to see who else with more experience, more knowlege, and probably a whole lot more compassion, is here with me.
>>
>>I am probably a good candidate for a twit filter, a thumbs down, an ignore, a 'this guy is really dumb' marker. I ask really stupid questions. One time, I couldn't remember how to undock the darn properties window ( thanks Sergey - 41 stars ). And guess what, nobody 'lasered' me (at least not IRL). I don't know what I will forget tomorrow, or what I may remember. I don't know all of the considerable capabilities of VFP. But, I do know that for the umpteen-millions of us non MCP, MVP, DVM, RSVP, PHDLAURATE, AAA, and IKNOWALL programmers - the UT has no stupid questions, and certainly not a stupid answer. I have been studying, with not a whole lot of regularity, for my VPF cert - just about a year now. I am still learning. I use the WIKI, MSKB, FAQ, online help, Google, UT, and the local internet dating service: whatever it takes to get the answer to a question. By extension, you also have the right to seek other sources of information exchange. I am staying here.
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>>I never met this Joe Bob, nor do I care - because if someone did drag down the quality of life around here, they become candidates for the twit filter. And that is my choice, not anyone elses.
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>>So, if my content is not valuable - twit me. I don't mind, really, I don't. You lose the chance to help me this is true (probably a stupid question, right?), but one day I might have the answer you need (I will own M$ by then, but still possible, eh?) and you won't see it.
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>>By extension, if someone gives me a 'thumbs down' on a thread, and you twit out thumbs down, you miss me again. So, when someones 'personal' opinion on my threads' value becomes public, and you listen to that opinion, you will miss me because of it. HHHmmmmm... the same with votes - weighted or unweighted, marks - multiplied or divided, stars - given or not, ribbons - red, yellow, or green, etc.... How many three stars given are the only solution? two stars? one stars? no stars?
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>>I introduced my boss' to this place. They now understand how important it is to have a place like the UT. They like to read all of the threads, and so do I. Good ones get printed and we discuss them. Hey, did I say 'Good Ones'? Well, I guess I did - that is my objective opinion, but that is all it is. Just like everyone elses.
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>>So, regarding the original question: I think anyone should be able to mark a thread solution, owner solutions inclusive. Why? Well, each reason behind a thread is different, and therefore the application of the solution may be somewhat different to what I think (because I generally don't know) should be the correct application.
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>>Regarding stars: well gosh, some people give them and others don't. I sometimes do, sometimes don't. I think I have a few stars myself, which I am proud to have. I liked being able to help someone. So I vote to keep them.
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>>Regarding thumbs, marks, points, or other measures. Get a pad of paper, keep it by your desk, and keep your own score. The low scores - put them (probably me) on a twit filter. The high scores - send them cards at Christmas and maybe flowers a couple of times a week. But - please don't tell me who is who.
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>>Regarding 'noise to signal' ratio, quality of message, etc. I am thinking, if you really want the worldwide VFP community to suffer after so many years of painful growth, all MVP, MCP, MASSIVEQUALITY programmers could have an executive thread. But, in this world, I am thinking maybe those that want could exchange private emails or something like that - to insure you only get the quality messages.
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>>I saw some latin phrases, most I had to look up. But, a very long time ago someone once told me to mimic Socrates. 'Always Ask A Question To Learn An Answer'. So I shall continue to do so. I have recently renewed for another 18months here - courtesy of my employers, because the clients benefit, my coworkers benefit, and so do I.
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>>Well, this is more like by 71cents, not the normal 2.
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>>
>>Ric
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>>PS. Regarding the thumb:
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http://garlic.aitec.edu.au/~bwechner/Documents/Hitch/Thumb/thumb.html>>
>>That should do the trick.
