My comments are inline below.

>>>>I wondered the same thing. Yes, ProMatrix users to separate themselves. >>They even have there own News Server so you don't have to use the >>microsoft one.
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>>I didn't realise it was a crime to have your own newsgroups.
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>??? I wasn't suggesting that there was.

Sure sounded like it...

>
>>>>As I said before I've used both ProMatrix & MaxFrame. What I found was the >>ProMatrix runs 'on top' of VFP - so to speak. Without going into a bunch >>of detail here, my problems with ProMatrix where that 1) Not flexable at >>all, and 2) It doesnt even use the VFP DBC! and 3) It prevents you from >>using many of VFP features. It is these last 2 reasons whey I think >>they've separated themsevles.

Pure Hokum! The Data dictionary extends the DBC way beyond its native capability, did well before DBCX, and the VPM Data Engine still supports free tables, which isn't possible in the DBC in any of its iterations. And with the extended features of xCase, made possible by VPM and the hard work of Hank Fay, I can do 90% of my data coding in the data model so that it propagates to every table/view, with the granularity that I choose. IOW, I can keep the data centric code where it belongs, and out of the UI. wouldn't be nearly as easy with any other framework I am aware of.

>>What ? Not flexable enough - what for ? VPM does use the VFP DBC and I am not aware of any VFP features you can't use. But I guess I have been only using Fox products since the 80s so what would I know <g>.
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>Ok it allows use of the DBC but uses its own extended stuff that you have to setup on yer own in order to get the form development side of it too work. And as far as being "flexable" you're not going to ever convince me that this RAD tool is more flexable that a framework. But what do I know I've only been a programmer since 1981 when I was first hired at age 15 - of course I wasn't using and pc's or fox products until a couple of years after that.

Great, please continue using your framework of choice. That’s why there are several to choose from. I don't know what difference you place between a RAD tool as you call it, and a framework, but if that means I must spend a good portion of my time tweaking the tools, no thanks. I'd rather spend my time productively solving the clients problems. This sound to me like the old adage that "real programmers don't use a framework" which is pure nonsense!

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>>Wrong again - sorry. I use SourceSafe without the additional $ module. I am sure it offers some additional features but I don't need them.
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>Yes & I was able to acomplish this as well...of course promatrix likes you to use their project manager & not so much the VFP one so yeah you can get it to work...with a few extra steps EVERY time you want to checkin-checkout.

Tools make me more productive, so if it takes another tool, so what. the good folks at ProMatrix have to eat, just like Drew, Toni, Kevin, et al. I don't begrudge any of them adding new products to their line, and expecting developers to pay for them, any more than I expect my clients to pay for added functionality. The VPM Source Control Kit is worth its price.

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>>>>Once a ProMatrix user started asking questions out here it would become >>obvious that their application was simply designed poorly.
>>

Flaming other people or products demonstrates an unprofessional attitude and cast doubt on the flamers credibility. I own MaxFrame (not the current version) and Drew's code is certainly high quality. Just doesn't work as well for me as VPM, and doesn't have near the features when put together with the rest of my tools. I haven't used the others. I won't flame or criticize any of them. They all have their adherents, good and bad points, and work well for some users, not as well for others. If you want to critique or compare product features, fine. Just make sure of your facts, do so dispassionately, and identify opinions. Most of what I am reading is opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours. Just state it that way.

>>>>Last time I checked you couldn't even log on to their news-server without >>buying there product....again I belive this to be part of their survival >>tacktics.
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>>Sorry - wrong again.
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>Oh yeah..you can log into the news-server, you just can join most of the newsgroups in there...
>

Again, get your fact straight!!! there are 14 separate news groups on the server. Two are private. Priority is for paid subscriptions to support (certainly not unreasonable) and the other is the Beta group, the use of which should be obvious. The other 12 are open to anyone who cares to drop by, chat, ask questions, kick the tires, etc., including one dedicated to native Spanish speakers. For anyone who is interested, the URL is news.promatrix.com, and is accessible with any news reader or a web interface. Only someone intent on getting into an agreement or flame war would be unwelcome. And, there are FACTS. I am one of the most active MVPs on the VPM newsgroups, and know whereof I speak.

>>>>Now with that being said I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Flames are ALWAY offensive, regardless of the target.

>Geeze sorry I ever brought it up. Look.... VPM = RAD tool. VMP = Framework.

Opinion! Pure and simple, so state it as such. Mine is 100% opposite yours, and we are entitled to hold opposing views and opinions. I believe I have made my remarks here in such manner that any intelligent reader can tell the difference between my opinions, statements of fact about VPM, and a compilation of the two where my experience is involved.

>Now I've written apps in both of these, and IMO it's a slam dunk which one is better for the experienced VFP developer.

That’s much better. I completely disagree, am an experience Fox developer from FoxBase+ to the present, and have written a number of APPs in VPM, but you are entitled to your opinion.