John,
>Jim
>
>Maybe we should just agree that in some ways we are undoubtedly the most fortunate generation of humans in recorded history, but in other (mainly spiritual) ways we are possibly the most bankrupt? Certainly the most selfish- one cannot be as selfish as we are without trememendous wealth. And when I say "we" I do not mean everybody on earth, they'll be starving in Zimbabwe later this year while we decide whether to have the beef or the chicken, neither of which we actually need.

Spiritually bankrupt and most selfish aptly describe the general state of "the western world" and a small (but growing) number of people are trying to address the issue.
It will be an up hill battle for them though when you consider that things like advertising is a $240+billion (annually) "industry" in the U.S. alone!

It is becoming clear to some "important" people in the world that the wealth of the western world (and most typically exemplified by the U.S. by the simple fact that theirs is the most exposed by things like movies, television, advertising, its military, its spreading industrial exploitation, etc) looks like selfishness and greed carried to the extreme. People who have virtually nothing and who barely survive everyday life are naturally envious when they see such excess. It is a simple matter for some "leader" to come along, point to the excesses, and declare them the enemy.

>
>I do think that DD-bashing has been a bit unfair here, it take a brave person to support institutions like religion these days and it's much easier to criticise when you don't have to offer any alternative, but the fact is that churches will outlive all of us no matter how much we rage. And our children or grandchildren will turn back to the principles offered by religion and criticise us for our materialism. Serve us right.

Well DD doesn't really support "institutions" like religion, does he?... and that is what makes it difficult to 'discuss' some of these things with him. There's no way to know where he's really coming 'from'. I have finally concluded that he is coming from his own study and interpretation of the Bible. Yet his opinions of things like liberals or lawyers or Islam or a host of other things continue to confuse me.
I am quite sure of one thing, and that is that Doug takes his religion very seriously and takes the Good Book literally (by his interpretation). So he is doing what he is called upon to do when he defends his religion so aggressively.

cheers
>
>BTW, New Zealand was first to recognise that women have a right to vote. But then we play rugby, so I guess that doesn't count ;-)
>
>Regards
>
>JR