>Morgan,
>
>>Do you have people using it for larger projects?
>
>Our shop has been using VFP Mere Mortals (and are currently migrating to MM.NET) since 1999 on a "not small" project (We have 12 programmers and over half a million lines of code spread over ~200 libraries and more reports than you can shake a stick at)
>

Well that makes the point of my question moot. You have already chosen a commercial framework, so it wouldn't be cost effective to change now you are locked it.


>While this is a valid concern, Kevin has taken great pains to not paint anyone into corners with MM. There are always easy ways to extend the framework where needed, and I can also assure you that he is very flexible and willing to add extra features.
>
>As far as the framework being a crutch, it always comes down to how willing the progammer is to step through the framework code. At our shop we have programmers who detest looking at others' code, and as such, I would agree with you that they shortchange themselves by not seeing what's under the hood and how to interact with the underlying concepts. On the other hand, those of us who have been more "adventurous" have not only learned these fundamentals, we have also gained valuable insight as to how to implement them without having to "bang our heads" -- Kevin has already "pre-banged" for us!
>

The problem with that is you may have avoided having to "bang your head" and Kevin has "pre-banged" his, but who is to say that is the right way? But being adventurous, their is potential that is didn't do it the correct way or the way that would be most effective and useful for you.

I mean, it may be the most flexible framework. Like in our framework, it can probably include 3rd party components, and make a cup of coffee for you. That isn't the point really, it is if you didn't do it yourself, how are you going to know it is done right and done the best way for your business. Not to say the incredible value of knowledge you gain from knowing "which" is the right way for you, which you can only gain by doing your own framework.

>>I mean, some people could use the Commercial framework and still learn the subtle nuasances of .NET Framework but it seems unlikely and redundant for a commerical framework user. Also, if you are doing a large scale project, I would think you would want to create you own framework as you go along so you can get the exact functionality you want instead of having yet another middle men (the commerical framework) between you and your application. It seems like you are handcuffing yourself to the commerical framework, and the recent trend in software seems to be as flexible as possible. That was why .NET has so many languages available.
>>
>
>I think you'd be surprised as to how many people other than Kevin have delved into MM. I investigate more of it almost every day. Partly to find out why it's not doing what I want it to (note to Kevin: still waiting for that psychic module) and partly so I know why he's done what he has so I can improvise with relative intelligence where necessary.
>
>Maybe it would be helpful for you to think of some of the functionality you feel would be better written on your own, and then check out the framework documentation. Again, I think you'll be surprised how much he's put into it. Remember, it's been ~2 years in the making.

I not questioning the completeness or usablility of MM in particular. I'm questioning the whole concept of using commerical frameworks, so I think you are really missing the point. I think the benefits of knowledge gained, flexibility, and customiziablity outweight the speed of using a commercial framework, which you have to learn anyways. So why not just learn the .NET Framework?

Learn about how to build the blocks, so instead of being forced to pick one of the 3 available houses.. you can make your own, your way.

Morgan