Morgan,
>Well that makes the point of my question moot. You have already chosen a commercial framework, so it wouldn't be cost effective to change now you are locked it.
Actually, this would have been the _perfect_ time to switch as we are in the infancy of migrating to .NET -- We decided to continue with MM because of how quickly we were able to integrate it and how well it satisfied our business needs in VFP. So far, we've seen nothing to change our minds about the .NET version.
>The problem with that is you may have avoided having to "bang your head" and Kevin has "pre-banged" his, but who is to say that is the right way? But being adventurous, their is potential that is didn't do it the correct way or the way that would be most effective and useful for you.
>
No one is to say there is a "right way" simply because there is no such thing. You asked a question about the validity of using a commercial framework and I answered with empirical evidence of what we discovered in VFP and in the first few months of .NET
As it turned out, I have learned far more and became productive much more quickly (which I would say is more effective and useful to me, my progamming mates, and my company) by stepping through the framework code, than I would have by attempting to write it myself. But then again, I don't find "banging my head" to be very useful!
>I mean, it may be the most flexible framework. Like in our framework, it can probably include 3rd party components, and make a cup of coffee for you. That isn't the point really, it is if you didn't do it yourself, how are you going to know it is done right and done the best way for your business. Not to say the incredible value of knowledge you gain from knowing "which" is the right way for you, which you can only gain by doing your own framework.
I guess I just don't disagree with your assertion that the only way to know it's done right is to do it yourself. Trust me, I know I'm not alone when I say that I'm always analyzing Kevin's code.
>I not questioning the completeness or usablility of MM in particular. I'm questioning the whole concept of using commerical frameworks, so I think you are really missing the point. I think the benefits of knowledge gained, flexibility, and customiziablity outweight the speed of using a commercial framework, which you have to learn anyways. So why not just learn the .NET Framework?
>
>Learn about how to build the blocks, so instead of being forced to pick one of the 3 available houses.. you can make your own, your way.
>
>Morgan
In my original post, I remarked that most of us have delved into the "guts" of the frameworks' underlying language -- both of VFP, and now .NET -- and we found that the knowledge gained, flexibility, and customizability you refer to are not at odds with the speed of development, at least not for those of us who keep these things in the forefront of our progamming mind.
FWIW, I agree with you that any framework can be a crutch, and commercial ones are more likely to produce that result as they tend to be more abstract. But again, any developer who doesn't peek under the hood to find out what's really going on and analyze/critique/learn it probably wouldn't be motivated enough to develop a framework of their one anyway!
BTW, I think your analogy misses the point of a framework. Mere Mortals, like any framework, is not a house. It provides a highly customizable foundation upon which you can rapidly build a house to your business' clients' specifications.
---J
