We are clearly at an impasse.

>Hello, I have a plane to catch but:
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>Happy to converse further if you ever engage my point about people being very sure of themselves (which I thought was relevant to this thread), then changing their minds as they approach death.
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There is no indication that any change in mind about belief in God. Only about a sudden desire to be remembered as a good person. My opinion........The desire to be a good person is not a function of a belief in God. I have the feeling you disagree.


>Since the definition of "astheist" includes denial of a God/afterlife, it is unclear why the fellow in my example, after a fantastic life of excitement and success according to his own proclaimed goals, would suddenly wish to be remembered for morality rather than his fabulous wins. I am told this is seen fairly often by pastors/priests/whatever in the established religions.
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>As I keep saying, I can understand why a faithful person might make such a change- the thought of facing one's maker presumably provides a certain amount of mental clarity.
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So it has nothing to do with real desire to be a moral person. It is merely a desire to escape punishment in a later life. Stopping a behavior for fear of the consequences is not the same as stopping because the behavior is wrong.

Are you saying the only reason to be moral is to have a better afterlife????

>For an atheist, who denies such a reckoning, I find it hard to accept that such a person after a whirlwind lifetime of success would *spontaneously* change and care about morality. Yes, I know it is possible, just as it is possible that he might join a travelling circus or countless other options allowed him. What interests me is the "why" and I thought it was relevant in the context of the thread.
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>The previous two paragraphs explain why I thought it is relevant that he is atheist. I cannot see why an atheist would do this. These simple words express my meaning.
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>Clearly you prefer a different argument, namely whether atheists can be moral at all.

It is clear that you are saying that aetheists do not care about morality since there is no reckoning later.

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>It is implicit in my posts that they can- the example I posted included an atheist with that exact desire.
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>If the example were simply an atheist who wanted to be moral, I would not have posted it- such an anecdote adds nothing to the discussion.
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>The anecdote acquired special meaning because it included a fabulously successful person who achieved his professed life goals, then suddenly acquired regrets and wished he could be remembered for morality instead. for somebody who denies God/afterlife, it seems odd that he would exchange the satisfaction of success by any temporal measure, for a wish that he can never fulfil. Could it be that people do not wish to be happy?
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>I have now done my best to explain my position, including repeating it three times in this post. If you come back challenging me that atheists can be moral and that you have drawn this and that implication that allow you to direct your challenges to me, then I give up.

I do too.