Hi Dragan, (& Tracy)

I stand by my statement. I suspect that a lot of your skepticism comes in large part from a lack of knowledge as to just how poorly women are treated (now) or have been treated in the past in many cultural settings. Remember, even today in many places women are nothing more than chattel. And, be honest, it's those countries where Christianity has had its greatest influence where you see more liberation that anywhere else.

For example, would you like to suggest that Islam has 'liberated' women? I wouldn't by just about any standard. How about in countries where hunduism is dominant like India? Between those two I'd say you have a large part of humanity... Oh, yes.. Let's talk about the religion of Communism. China has a great women's liberation movement, don't they... Ahh what's a quarter of humanity anyway?

What most folks simply do not have is an understanding of how Christianity has indeed affected the various cultures it has impacted. ALl good? Probably not but most of those issues stem, not from Christianity itself, but some goofy mis-interpretation of Christianity.

Remember, in those days women were not much more than property. Christianity elevated them to the equals of men as the Bible states that God is no respecter of persons.

Also, candidly, a lot of the concepts people carry about with them these days is little more than anti-God hate and bigotry. Purely non-intellectual or non-fact-based in origin. Not much more than just another excuse to blame someone else for one's own failings.

ALso, and this is I suppose an area where folks can disagree, the definition of 'liberate' is, it would seem, important to nail down. A lot of what I see people calling 'freedom' is really just a rationalization for hedonism - mostly which leads to utter slavery to some desire.

For example, to blame the Y chromosome is nothing little more than politically correct hate speech. Like the (attempt at) humor is the same as rational thought or something. I wonder how many ladies would scream and holler if someone were to say that because of their chromosones they were genetically stupid. Same difference and it certainly doesn't wash intellectually IMO.

Also, there simply are some folks who just turn off their brains when it comes to things spiritual and then blame everyone else for their self-inflicted stupidity. Can't help them much though one would like to I suppose.

Are Christians perfect? Heavens no! No way. Regardless, the philosophical impact of the application of an honest understanding of Christianity will always do more to set folks free than anything else out there. Look, what's the ostensible goal of humanity? "World Peace", right? Well, just think about it a little and be honest. If you could actually get folks to "love their neighbor as themselves" you'd go a long long way towards that goal, wouldn't you? Be honest. Or are you suggesting that hate it the way????? I doubt iy. You're not that kind of individual, nor is anyone else here from what I can see but there certainly is an awful lot of anti-Christian prejudice and prejudice in any form IMO is just another form of pride and not very pretty.

But I'm not as intellectually superior as you are I suppose... <g>



>>I'm with you totally on these issues and your reponses below... I also think it's funny (or sad actually) that it's still the lack of the Y chromozone that is the problem. Additionally, I cannot believe ANYONE would claim that christianity has done more to liberate women than anything else given our KNOWN history here in the country that has the most freedom. Where do these unrealistic perceptions originate? Obviously from the church...too bad members of many churches were not great supporters of women's rights when it mattered.
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>Yet the greatest Christian of the UT (aka "Bible-thumping maniac", but I didn't invent that name) has claimed exactly that.
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>The only explanation I have is that the meaning he read into "liberation" is "you will be liberated from everything else once you join us".

Here's a great example of you attempting to insert your prejudices into this conversation as though they were mine. That is totally disengenuous and a falsehood. Please stop misrepresenting me, either willfully or because you're just plain ignorant, would you? <s>

I don't mind an honest dialog but you really need to be honest here Dragan. Please keep your incorrect misrepresentations to yourself or at least give me the courtesy you keep saying I don't have, thereby blatantly proving your hypocrisy to all who are able to think. I don't really appreciate your misrepresenting what I have said and I'd be delighted to tell you (once again) if you have the courtesy to speak to me rather than about me. <g>

Tsk tsk.. <g>

>
>Besides, supporting women's rights would be against the dogmae of their churches, so they are not only omitting the support - they are mostly opposing these rights. Or even when giving support, they always take care not to go too far. And their definition of "too far" is also quite short.

Really? What is my dogma Dragan? Please, you seem to be an expert on what I believe.

I wonder how you would like it if I startted telling everyone what you believed like you just did here.

Lessee.. Oh yeah.. Dragan, being an ex-resident of a land run by communists believes in eating children. Only if they're boiled though. Isn't it a real shame that he's so backwards! I mean everyone knows that these ex-communists are all a bunch of baby-eaters, don't we? (all nod approvingly here)

But you say, "That's a misrepresentation of what I've said", and in all honesty I would say you are correct.

Please give me the courtesy of accurately representing me.

Thanks!